Newbie... first new post -- Smother Me

NerveBag

NerveBag

New member
Okay... I've been listening to the posts here (and commenting on them), and I'm terrified to post a song. I vacillate between harder, alt-rock songs and uptempo ballads that my girlfriend likes (because they're about/for her). I thought I had a semi-handle on mixing these down, but after reading all the comments and listening to other songs, I think I'm gonna get hammered. I have a lot to learn. But that's why I'm here, so be easy on me. I'm gonna post one ballad and one harder song -- and I know I'm going to have to face the music, so to speak. I have a whole new album, and I'm not sure which songs to pick to throw to the wolves. LOL! This is one of the uptempo ballads.

I think I'm chasing the "db dragon" too hard. I want the songs to be loud but not squashed, and I think I'm erring on the side of loud. I just throw Cubase's Maximizer at everything too much, probably.

Not sure the best way to post a song is here. Let me know if I should do it another way.

Thanks for any listens/feedback.

Dropbox - 03_Smother Me.wav
 
You're not far off. Singing and playing are good. The song is promising. The vocal phrasing seemed stiff in the louder parts of the songs. I assume the song is about some fetish. We are non-judgmental! ;)

The low end is lacking. You are mixing like a guitarist. Drums and bass need to drive the song. The bass and kick drum need to come up. The rhythm guitars could come down--a lot. Try boosting your kick drum and bass by a few dB. Lower the rhythm guitars by a couple of dB or more. The lead guitars are fine. I think the mix will sound noticeably better.

What effect do you have on the lead vocal? There's a lofi graininess to it that isn't flattering. You mentioned a Maximizer? How does the mix sound without it?

Good job. Good to see you posting AND commenting on the forum!
 
Sounds great, man! But wow it's loud. Might be over-limited a little? Agree with Robus, kick definitely needs to come up, along with the bass. Nice track though, just needs some adjustments, and it'll sound way better. I don't mind the effect on the vocal, seems the lead vocal could use a little more of a dip in the 1-2k area, or maybe 3k, just need to experiment. How did you eq the lead vocal?

My mother's family is from Evansville, small world!
 
I don't think the low end is lacking at all...it's just coming from not-flattering places. EQ that mud out of the drum kit, bring the kick up, but see where that nasty lumpy resonance is and take some out. Guitars are pretty loud, can def come down a bit.

It is really loud, for sure. How much gain reduction is the limiter causing? What's that harsh/grainy stuff on the vocal? It's clogging up the top end, where it meshes poorly with the cymbals. So...there's a blobby/flabby low end & an almost harsh top end. The mids sound really good, and I think that's why this mix doesn't sound half bad really. It's the ends of the spectrum that need controlling, IMO.

Thanks for posting! You made it sound like it was going to be a lot worse than that! That was actually pretty good dude. Song-wise, it's good to go, I think, just some mix adjustments.

Want to tell us your approach/gear? What are you using, all over?
 
Thanks for all the listens and advice! Sorry in advance for what I expect will be a bit of a wordy response.

There are several issues I'm dealing with. First and foremost is that I have no idea what I'm doing. But another problem I'm facing is that most of the tunes on the new album were recorded at different times over the space of five or six years -- most of them with an old Windows XP computer with a cheaper audio interface, a very old version of Cubase, a nicer Taylor acoustic that I sold, etc. I'm trying to mash all these old tunes with vastly different levels and instruments and effects into a cohesive album that sounds at least marginally like it was recorded in a few weeks in the same studio.

I think one of the issues is also the "master" EQ I put on it. I Googled "mastering in Cubase" on YouTube and watched a tutorial where a guy said to put the "rock EQ" and the Maximizer on the master output. The Rock EQ (that I've actually toned down) looks like this:

EQ.png

It definitely made the songs brighter and louder, but I agree I'm probably pushing it a little TOO hard to get that level that the kids are used to. :-) The biggest complaint I've always gotten about my music is that it's too quiet. When people put it on their phone, it's in with all these songs from QOTSA or Foo Fighters or whatever, and when my song comes on in shuffle mode, they can barely hear it. That's annoying. I get it. My life's dream is to find a way to get that level without over-compressing or distorting.

Here's the Maximzer (basically a limiter, I guess). It's showing about 1.3 db of gain reduction.

Maximizer.png

The "graininess" in the vox may just be me, honestly. I don't smoke, but I have a smoker's voice. It's pretty grainy. Hell, I'm 50! LOL!

Surprised to hear the comments about the kick and bass. It's so hard to know what kinds of setups people are listening on. The bass rocks on my home stereo with Definitive speakers and a huge Klipsch sub. And I'm not even pushing the sub. LOL! With all due respect, without knowing what you're listening on or how much bass you have available in your system, I'm a little leery of pushing it TOO much.

Definitely interested in hearing more about the competing highs and vocal issues. There's no EQ on any of the vocals. The only EQ in the whole mix is the "Rock EQ" in the master channel. There are also no effects on any of them. That's just my voice that's "unflattering." Sorry. I don't fancy myself a singer. I only do it because there's no one else I know who can. And it's just not as fun if someone else sings all your songs for you. LOL! Love it or leave it, that's my voice.

Gear-wise:
Guitars: (main electric guitar) ESP AX-350; I also use a Jackson PS-4 from time to time for the tremolo; my acoustic guitars are terrible for recording (sold my Taylor (110?) to my brother-in-law cheap as an Xmas present for his daughter) -- Ovation Elite TX (fantastic guitar, but terrible mic'd) and a cheap Fender FA-something
Effects: I use a POD XT for all my bass and guitar effects
Bass: ESP F-104
Keys: All VSTs triggered by an old Alesis QS6
Drums: Superior Drummer 2.0 (I've never quite mastered that software -- way too many options); triggered with a Korg PADKONTROL
Mics: Behringer B2 Pro for vox and a cheap MXL mic for acoustic guitars
DAW: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 rack interface; Behringer Autocom rack compressor for vox and acoustic guitar inputs; Cubase 9.5 (just upgraded from 4); JBL 3 series monitors; KRK Rockit 10" powered sub.

What did I not cover?

Thanks again for any and all input.
 
I don't want to bug the shit out of you people, but I'll probably be a little needy for the first week or two. Sorry. I'll back off after that.

Okay... this will get posted under both tunes, just in case, but apologies (at least partially) all around. I did a little experiment while working out tonight. I listened to a couple of my songs through my Jaybird X3 bluetooth earbuds through Google Play Music and then a couple from bands that I consider "influences." Same volume. Same buds. Same app. Same settings. QOTSA had somewhat more prominent drums, but the bass was at LEAST as buried as mine. Foo Fighters bass was noticeably louder, but the drums were at LEAST as buried as mine. I don't know which is right or wrong. They were both guitar/vocal-heavy songs that came pretty close to matching my mix. HOWEVER, I also noticed that my songs were noticeably LOUDER than theirs. LOL! So I achieved my volume goal. Now I need to back off that and work on quality.

So apologies that I was incredulous about the kick/bass too low and volume too loud. You were all right. Now I need to figure out how to fix it.

Some specific questions:

Here's my drum setup for Smother Me:

View attachment 103068

I took off the stock compressors and EQs because they seemed to be making the drums "dip" with the limiter. I never push my faders or the main SD volume higher than -.1 db or so, because I assume it will start to distort. Should I push them higher? Or should I compress each drum or put some other effect on each drum? Like I said, I never quite mastered this software. It has SO many options, that I just don't have time to experiment with all of them. Anyone have a good SD2 NY Avatar drum setting they can send? Can you even do that in SD2? Share drum kits?

Also, do I PUT an overall EQ on the master output? I want all the songs to sound like they're from the same studio. If so, is there a different setting I should be using. I was also always told never to push an EQ fader over the mid-line, but this was a stock setting in Cubase, so I assumed it must be okay.

LIke I said... I have no idea what I'm doing.
 
I understand wanting to have the recordings all sounding similar, like they came from the same studio, but I focus more on what an individual song needs. You'll still be able to make them flow good on a cd/album, and I would rather not do something detrimental to a track just to make it fit better in a collection. It's all about the song first, to me.

Your stuff sounds great, I just think you'd actually have an easier time getting the volume you want at the end if you recorded lower. If you're tracking to Superior Drummer at -.1, that means you're tracking your instruments way too hot as well. This will actually make it a little tougher to get the clean, loud mastered sound you want in the end. You're giving yourself, and your Master Fader no headroom to 'work with'.

All this being said, there's really no right or wrong way to do anything. I'm no expert, that's for sure, just giving my opinion.

Like Andrew Scheps says - "All that matters is what's coming out of the speakers!"
 
Good points, for sure. I need to re-think my recording process.

This is going to make all of you roll your eyes, but here's my typical process. I record a "placeholder" drum track just to have something to play to. Then I record my guitars through the POD, and the waveforms usually come out like this (the guitar waveforms are at the top, obviously -- that's pretty much what they look like right out of the gate -- loud and compressed -- but they usually sound fine to me):

Waveforms.png

Then I record a bass/keys/etc. The bass is usually not as compressed, but my goal is always to make it resemble the guitars as much as I can.

Then I record vocals, which are always WAY lower than the other instruments, because I can't get my Focusrite inputs and Behringer compressor settings to allow levels that hot without distortion.

Then I add drum fills and flourishes.

Then... and this is the bad part, I'm guessing... I usually start selecting my vocal tracks (and any others that didn't record loud enough) and doing the "add gain" thing in Cubase. Select a track section, go to "Gain," and add a couple of db or whatever is necessary per section to make it as loud as the other instruments.

Then I add EQ or limiters or compressors or whatever to the main output (and sometimes individual tracks, if necessary) to get the last ounce of volume and punch and "master" the song.

And the result is the songs you're hearing.

How many things am I doing wrong? And...

My question is: if I record all the drums/instruments/vocals/VSTs at a lower volume, what's the technique to get them "maximized" to a level that is at least close to the levels of "popular" music?

I know Foo Fighters/etc have millions of dollars of studio equipment and lifelong experts at producing/mixing/mastering. But they use a lot of the same stuff we do. What's the secret formula?
 
If anyone wants to listen to the entire album, you should be able to stream it on bandcamp. Maybe it would help if you heard more examples? But I don't want to post a bunch of stuff here and piss everyone off. Totally your call if you want to help a struggling home recorder figure out his misguided recording process -- or just laugh at 12 versions of bad recording/mixing. LOL! I'm not expecting or asking for anything. Just throwing it out there for anyone who has nothing better to do with their time. Seriously.

Mother Nature Is a Serial Killer | NerveBag
 
Well again, there really isn't any "right or "wrong", it's all about the end result. Music is an art, and all artists approach their creative processes differently. But there are some things that can get you into trouble, and recording too hot is one of them.

I'm not familiar with Cubase or their scale, but that definitely looks way too hot. And it obviously is if you're tracking to Superior at those levels. Superior at -.1 is through the roof. Insane loud. So your issue starts way back then. If I got your session to mix, I would instantly put Superior down to around -10, and then "gain down" all the other tracks to match it to get it a good balance, keeping my eyes on the master meters to be somewhere in the ballpark of -16 to -20, peaking around -6 or 8 (an occasional peak at -4 is ok)

You simply feed the limiter a little more gain at the end to bring it to the desired level, obviously avoiding distortion and sounding too 'over-limited'. But when you record quieter, you're bringing a cleaner signal up to those levels, and you have much more headroom to work with.

It also makes it much easier to record vocals, because you don't have to blast your preamps just to comfortably hear it over the music, and you'll run into less clipping/distortion problems when tracking them.
 
That all honestly makes total sense. Unfortunately, it's probably way too late for this album. I doubt I can undo all the damage I've done. I'm not sure what will happen if I "de-gain" all the tracks I added gain to. Even if I could, I don't know that i have the energy to undo all the stuff I've done to hundreds of tracks. I might be able to take off some of the maximizers and remix some of these, but holy s**t. Where would I find the time?

I may have to try to start over with a new process on a new album -- if I manage to find time to record another one. Or maybe you just made me realize that I don't have the chops do to this. Maybe quilting or macrame is more my speed. :-)

Funny how I thought I was "getting it" on this album, but now I kind of feel like I should just find another hobby.

Not being whiny. Just finally realizing how hard this is and that there's a reason some people make millions at it and others languish in obscurity.

I appreciate all the input.
 
No you're doing fine, its part of the process. You're too talented to not do it. I'm not saying to remix the album lol it sounds fine. Just make a few mix adjustments (or not) and call it a day. Then take everything you learn to the next project. Again, it's part of the process. If you could hear some of my older recordings you'd ask yourself "What was he thinking?" Hell, my first CD isn't even in stereo, and nothing's panned lol that's how much of an idiot I am...

Again, not trying to discourage, just trying to help. I'm still learning everyday; from experience, watching tutorials daily, and from the great people in here. Your mixes sound fantastic compared to some of the stuff out there, so instead of feeling discouraged thinking that you're far away, be excited that you're really close.
 
Seriously, you and all the people here are great. "it's not you, it's me." LOL! Isn't that what they say?

I need to come to terms with my abilities and decide whether I have the capacity and time to improve them or live with where they've maxed out or find another outlet entirely for my "creative expression." Honestly... quilting sounds very relaxing. Ha ha!
 
Yep, good song, mix is in the ballpark, way too loud. It's quite distorted. You need to lose about 9 or 10 dB.

Already said above but I'll repeat: record and mix with levels averaging at around -18dBFS. That is, as you record the track it should go above and below -18dBFS and never above -6dBFS (though anything short of 0dBFS is technically okay if the analog input side of things stays clean). Aim for mix levels around there as well, then at the end put a decent mastering limiter on it and bring it to the final level, typically about -14dB LUFS and -1dBFS to -0.5dBFS peak. This song reads -4.7dB LUFS and +1.4dBFS peak (due to intersample peaking).
 
About that mastering EQ preset - hmmm, I would ditch that, or at least bring it up but heavily modify it. Do you want a mastering preset that has NO idea what your song sounds like? How does it know it needs 3db at 8k, for example? I'd get in the habit of leaving it flat, close your eyes, and nudge the meter up and down, just listening to what sounds better. When it sounds like it's in the ballpark, open your eyes and see where it's at. If your ears decided you needed to remove 4db from 3k, then instead of deciding on that, ask yourself if something in the mix is the problem, before you "fix" it on the master channel. Only move things there if that frequencies cumulative sounds are the problem, across all tracks. Personally, if I myself pushed up 3db at 8k, you'd hear my sibilance (that I worked hard to remove on the vocal channel) introduced back in. I'll add the 8k on the drum instead. So, just make sure whatever you're doing on the master needs to be done to everything. Or maybe it's simply better on there, that's a good reason too.
 
I like the song-good tones on the guitars, good vocal performances, drums sound pretty good for programmed. The mix sounds pretty good but the mastering is just trying too hard to be loud...this is redonkulously loud! You are losing the subtlety in your layered vocals and the separation of your instruments by having everything cranked so loud imo. I don't expect you to listen to me, if you want loud you got it! I think we all try to get a competitive volume in our finished products but on the home recording frontlines there is usually a sacrifice to making a track as loud as professionally mixed and mastered products and thats what i hear with this mix. I do like the song and performance-very catchy!

* edit to add-i like this post by bouldersoundguy above-i have been arriving at this same "formula" no peaks above -6 avg hitting around -18 then you can master the song properly without changing it too much--nice post!
 
You're all exactly right. I was trying too hard to get that "professional" level volume without the professional level studio or skills. The more i listen to the songs, the more I realize how hard I pushed them. My songs are actually LOUDER than then songs I'm trying to emulate. Ha ha! I need to back off and work on mix more than volume. I Googled a tutorial on mastering and just did what the guy said. It doesn't necessarily fit my music and my style of recording.

All good advice. I just can't decide whether to start over on every song on this album (ugh) or just take it all into consideration on the next one.

Appreciate the hell out of all the comments. It's humbling to hear everything you've done wrong and have to admit it. LOL!

I'll try to remix and repost.

Thanks!
 
NerveBag said:
You're all exactly right. I was trying too hard to get that "professional" level volume without the professional level studio or skills. The more i listen to the songs, the more I realize how hard I pushed them. My songs are actually LOUDER than then songs I'm trying to emulate. Ha ha! I need to back off and work on mix more than volume. I Googled a tutorial on mastering and just did what the guy said. It doesn't necessarily fit my music and my style of recording.

All good advice. I just can't decide whether to start over on every song on this album (ugh) or just take it all into consideration on the next one.

Appreciate the hell out of all the comments. It's humbling to hear everything you've done wrong and have to admit it. LOL!

I'll try to remix and repost.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I strongly recommend you remix this but start by bringing the guitars down to a reasonable level instead of bringing things up. Zero dB full scale is the absolute upper limit to what digital encoding can represent, which you should avoid hitting. Drive down the middle of the lane, not scraping along the guardrail. I don't think this is a problem in mastering (we can cross that bridge when we get there), it's a mix problem. But musically you've got something good going on so it's worth putting the effort into fixing it.
 
Thanks! I do my best to keep everything <0db. But there are so many tracks and so many effects that influence that, I guess I'm missing something. Gonna work on it.
 
NerveBag said:
Thanks! I do my best to keep everything <0db. But there are so many tracks and so many effects that influence that, I guess I'm missing something. Gonna work on it.
Click to expand...

First thing I'd do - pull all the faders back down to "-". Completely off. Remove any plugins where gain is added (compressors, limiters) or change their settings back to default, but leave tonal fx, and then start over. You don't have to scrap EVERY plugin, keep the shaping ones, but ditch the gain-inducing ones so you're back at a minimal volume. Just how I'd approach it.

If you want to completely remix, then just remove all plugins and start fresh. I've done this before.
 
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