New Tune -- Airships
- Thread starter Nola
- Start date
Snowman999
Active member
I like it. If anything it could use a lead guitar part or guitar noodles. Melody wise it's the best I've heard you do (you know we been over this). One day when you master your vocal "style", you'll be good to go.
But, for our discussions on vocals, you're better than a lot of indie bands.
Do you play live?
But, for our discussions on vocals, you're better than a lot of indie bands.
Do you play live?
musicgeekandlvr
Member
I like this too. It didn't sound too plodding to me but I can see why if gives you that feeling. In my opinion, I think the bass accenting the 1 of each bar may help to give it this feeling. When I listen, I hear 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 which may sound a little slowing than if you were to do 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6. Also maybe just bringing the drums and guitar up a little would help. I really dig the song though and the time change you have towards the end.
Nola
Well-known member
That's a good point about the bass. I do feel the accent is more on 1 than 4. I think I did the traditional method of playing the bass with the kick and letting snare handle the 4 beat. Might have been a mistake. Tempo is 102 to 105 so it's not that slow, so I'm not really sure why it feels that way to me. I think it's the snare. It's driving me nuts b/c the velocity is too low on it so there's no crack. I think I need to raise the velocity of the sample. I'll do that now. We'll see if that helps.
Snowman, no I don't play live, but I used to play live and did college radio. I kinda want to do that again at some point, but life issues are in the way right now.
Last edited:
Nola
Well-known member
Okay, the OP now has an updated version with a better sounding snare (imo). More crack and aggression to it which helps drive the song more. It doesn't feel as plodding now. Do those of you who heard the old version agree? I also added some more fills at the end to signal the ending so it's not as abrupt. I'm not sure I like the cymbal hit on the last beat, though. Feedback on the changes would be very helpful. Thanks!
I like this song a lot. Might be my favorite of yours. Like I said, it sounds like a medley of two different songs, but they're both good.
Mixwise, you have some effect on the lead vocal. Is there some kind of distortion, and a strange reverb? It's cool at first but it gets old. By the end of the song, I'm wanting to hear your voice without it. Maybe tone it down, or try it in the first part of the song and ditch it in the second part?
It may be due to that effect, but the vocal isn't quite in the mix. It sounds like karaoke. If you could get a more natural sound, it might sit better.
Your voice is what makes all your songs. You're interesting to listen to. That's charisma. Your vocals work in an indy way.
In terms of performance, this could be better. It feels to me like the whole thing is not settled into its groove. Lots of places where the bass mistimes the changes. The voice doesn't feel quite locked in with the backing tracks. The drums have improved but aren't feeling organic. All around it could be tighter and groove better.
There was nothing in the last minute or so of the song that justified it going on so long. Either cut it short, or add some kind of solo or something to keep it interesting. Otherwise it drags.
Mixwise, you have some effect on the lead vocal. Is there some kind of distortion, and a strange reverb? It's cool at first but it gets old. By the end of the song, I'm wanting to hear your voice without it. Maybe tone it down, or try it in the first part of the song and ditch it in the second part?
It may be due to that effect, but the vocal isn't quite in the mix. It sounds like karaoke. If you could get a more natural sound, it might sit better.
Your voice is what makes all your songs. You're interesting to listen to. That's charisma. Your vocals work in an indy way.
In terms of performance, this could be better. It feels to me like the whole thing is not settled into its groove. Lots of places where the bass mistimes the changes. The voice doesn't feel quite locked in with the backing tracks. The drums have improved but aren't feeling organic. All around it could be tighter and groove better.
There was nothing in the last minute or so of the song that justified it going on so long. Either cut it short, or add some kind of solo or something to keep it interesting. Otherwise it drags.
Nola
Well-known member
Hey Robus, thanks for the feedback and astute observations. Yeah I processed the vocal a little differently -- old mic again, and I made them brighter and with some slapback echo. The slapback is likely what you're hearing. The idea was the song felt old/60s to me, and I tried to go with those types of effects. I'm not sure I love it, either, but just like you I liked it at first so I went with it. What I put up on SC are the "almost finished mixes", and later this year I will put final mixes on Bandcamp, so I have time to change that. I'll take notes and see what can improve. Agree on the vocal I am slightly ahead of the beat on a few lines -- it was a monitoring issue where I couldn't hear the backing track, yet was enjoying the take so kept going. Wound up liking it the best of all takes and couldn't get a better take. Not sure what to do about it b/c I'm not a great singer and probably can't get a better take. Maybe I'll try a redo in a few weeks or something.
We usually hear things similarly, but the ending I kinda disagree with you in that the organ comes way up, distorts, and acts as the lead instrument playing a different melody. It's the only time that melody is played without the vocal over top of it, etc, so I wanted to give it a lead spot. Hope that makes the ending make more sense, though, if you didn't hear it that way then that's reality.
JohnnyAmato
New member
Hey Nola, I think this is my favorite of yours so far. Liked the vibe right from the start of the opening chords, guitars sound nice. Time change worked well too.
Vocally, most of it is fine, but there are a few lines here and there that I know you can do better (I mean that in a good way). You're voice does has a certain charisma to it, like Robus said. In this song though, a few parts/words are lacking a little confidence I think. There's enough space between most of the lines, that it shouldn't be too difficult to do 5 or 6 full takes in a row and pick and choose the best versions of lines and drag them all to the "keeper track".
The 2nd half after the time change, where the bassline is C---F---C---F---C---F---G, I think as you get closer to the end a few extra notes during the measure would sound good, as I kept hearing it my head. What I'm hearing is an "A" and a "G" on the 3 and 4 just before you hit the F. So it would look like this; C-AGF (the A, G, and F being on the "D" string) I would only do it sparingly, just a few times here and there, would add nice depth and give the bass as a whole a little bit more of an identity. And a slight slide to the "A", literally from only like 1 fret away, would make it sound smooth. Heck, you could even do it just before the "1" a few times during the second measure. An exaggerated example of the line would look like this: C-AGF-AGC-AGF-AGC (I wouldn't do it no where near that much, that's just an example) I understand you'd have to re-track it to do that a few times, so maybe it's not an option. Just a suggestion to give the bass a bit more of an identity, even if done sparingly. Randomly hitting the low "F" on the E string instead of the higher one would help too.
The mix as a whole is good, but for some reason it doesn't seem colorful, I'm not exactly sure why though. Seems black and white, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's lacking something. I'm just not sure what. Those added random bass notes I suggested would definitely add some color, but that's not it. Very minimal tasteful, melodic noodling with a nice, wide, reverby clean guitar tone would help to, as someone suggested. You'd just have to be careful not over-do it, so it doesn't take away from the vocal.
Like I said, I like this one a lot, and envision it being more colorful, and "bigger" (for lack of a better word) Maybe you don't see it that way and like it how it is, which is fine. I actually listened to it three times, with the mindset of "what would I do if this was mine" and those were the suggestions I came up with.
Nice writing, my friend.
Vocally, most of it is fine, but there are a few lines here and there that I know you can do better (I mean that in a good way). You're voice does has a certain charisma to it, like Robus said. In this song though, a few parts/words are lacking a little confidence I think. There's enough space between most of the lines, that it shouldn't be too difficult to do 5 or 6 full takes in a row and pick and choose the best versions of lines and drag them all to the "keeper track".
The 2nd half after the time change, where the bassline is C---F---C---F---C---F---G, I think as you get closer to the end a few extra notes during the measure would sound good, as I kept hearing it my head. What I'm hearing is an "A" and a "G" on the 3 and 4 just before you hit the F. So it would look like this; C-AGF (the A, G, and F being on the "D" string) I would only do it sparingly, just a few times here and there, would add nice depth and give the bass as a whole a little bit more of an identity. And a slight slide to the "A", literally from only like 1 fret away, would make it sound smooth. Heck, you could even do it just before the "1" a few times during the second measure. An exaggerated example of the line would look like this: C-AGF-AGC-AGF-AGC (I wouldn't do it no where near that much, that's just an example) I understand you'd have to re-track it to do that a few times, so maybe it's not an option. Just a suggestion to give the bass a bit more of an identity, even if done sparingly. Randomly hitting the low "F" on the E string instead of the higher one would help too.
The mix as a whole is good, but for some reason it doesn't seem colorful, I'm not exactly sure why though. Seems black and white, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's lacking something. I'm just not sure what. Those added random bass notes I suggested would definitely add some color, but that's not it. Very minimal tasteful, melodic noodling with a nice, wide, reverby clean guitar tone would help to, as someone suggested. You'd just have to be careful not over-do it, so it doesn't take away from the vocal.
Like I said, I like this one a lot, and envision it being more colorful, and "bigger" (for lack of a better word) Maybe you don't see it that way and like it how it is, which is fine. I actually listened to it three times, with the mindset of "what would I do if this was mine" and those were the suggestions I came up with.
Nice writing, my friend.
Last edited:
Nola
Well-known member
Thanks a lot, Johnny, that is helpful. When you say "colorful", what do you mean? Like bits coming in and out or actual tones or something different?
What do you think of this plan:
1. Try redoing the vocal to fix timing (I'm not sure I can do better, though).
2. Redo the bass so the fills are in time and add some passing tones like you suggested. I looked at the notes on the grid. Only 2 of the longer duration notes were off. But the quicker fills were like 1/16th note off at times. I'd rather retrack then try to fix them in post.
3. More reverb on the drums. The drums are driving me a bit nuts as they are right now. I envision a Jesus and Mary Chain (Darklands era) drum sound. I think I need to put a chamber reverb on them. But when I do, the snare suddenly looses attack and crack. They must have parallel compressed their snares, which I don't know how to do (and honestly sounds like a nightmare to setup).
4. Tinker with a few clean guitar lines during the vocal breaks.
My guess is what you're hearing is a combination of all those. Would you say? If so, I can try to improve most.
What do you think of this plan:
1. Try redoing the vocal to fix timing (I'm not sure I can do better, though).
2. Redo the bass so the fills are in time and add some passing tones like you suggested. I looked at the notes on the grid. Only 2 of the longer duration notes were off. But the quicker fills were like 1/16th note off at times. I'd rather retrack then try to fix them in post.
3. More reverb on the drums. The drums are driving me a bit nuts as they are right now. I envision a Jesus and Mary Chain (Darklands era) drum sound. I think I need to put a chamber reverb on them. But when I do, the snare suddenly looses attack and crack. They must have parallel compressed their snares, which I don't know how to do (and honestly sounds like a nightmare to setup).
4. Tinker with a few clean guitar lines during the vocal breaks.
My guess is what you're hearing is a combination of all those. Would you say? If so, I can try to improve most.
Last edited:
JohnnyAmato
New member
Sounds like a good plan. Not all the vocals need to be fixed, just a few parts, and a few more takes should give you plenty of bits to choose from to fix any problem areas.
When I say colorful, I don't necessarily mean any specific element. The things I mentioned will help, fixing the few vocal parts will help, some EQ in spots might help. Not sure where exactly, but it sounds like somewhere there is a little too much 2-4k, and not enough somewhere in the 300-600 range? Might be the vocal, not sure though.
As I listen again, it does have some color, so don't get me wrong, you're not too far off. There's just a lot of room to add "more ingredients to the meal" I like to say. Passing bass tones, guitar notes/fills, some "Ahhs" quietly beneath the chorus', especially just towards the end would be really cool. Sort of doing what the organ is doing at times. Bell hits, chimes, strings, the possibilities are endless with something like this. Unexpected, but fitting little things that surprise the listener, and add to the experience. Not sure if you noticed, but in the song I just posted, there is a gong hit at the start of each soft verse, and a quick bell at the end of the last solo, just before the last bar of the song. Check it out again and you'll hear them, in case you didn't notice it the first time. It's little things like that that I'm sort of referring to here.
When I say colorful, I don't necessarily mean any specific element. The things I mentioned will help, fixing the few vocal parts will help, some EQ in spots might help. Not sure where exactly, but it sounds like somewhere there is a little too much 2-4k, and not enough somewhere in the 300-600 range? Might be the vocal, not sure though.
As I listen again, it does have some color, so don't get me wrong, you're not too far off. There's just a lot of room to add "more ingredients to the meal" I like to say. Passing bass tones, guitar notes/fills, some "Ahhs" quietly beneath the chorus', especially just towards the end would be really cool. Sort of doing what the organ is doing at times. Bell hits, chimes, strings, the possibilities are endless with something like this. Unexpected, but fitting little things that surprise the listener, and add to the experience. Not sure if you noticed, but in the song I just posted, there is a gong hit at the start of each soft verse, and a quick bell at the end of the last solo, just before the last bar of the song. Check it out again and you'll hear them, in case you didn't notice it the first time. It's little things like that that I'm sort of referring to here.
I like just about all your songs.
Timing gak at :36. Double drum hit. A few more minor ones later.
The first thing I noticed about this is that there wasn't anything "pulsing" in the song. It's all just kind of flacid, and plodding along. No "umph" on the back beats.
Bass could probably come up some.
A double tracked vocal would sound cool.
Like that fuzz guitar on the right and the chimey clean guitar on the left countering it.
Timing gak at :36. Double drum hit. A few more minor ones later.
The first thing I noticed about this is that there wasn't anything "pulsing" in the song. It's all just kind of flacid, and plodding along. No "umph" on the back beats.
Bass could probably come up some.
A double tracked vocal would sound cool.
Like that fuzz guitar on the right and the chimey clean guitar on the left countering it.
Nola
Well-known member
Those were supposed to be 16th note "ghost" hits. I guess they're too loud. I raised all the snares last night to try to add the ump and those must have come up too much.
That's exactly what I hear, kind of plodding. 6/8 time, I think, because the 4/4 ending opens up and doesn't plod as much.
Agree the snare lacks umph, even after turning it up. It's better but still lacks the drive. Maybe it's just impossible to drive this song. I messed with tempo a lot before tracking and anything faster made the vocal too rushed. I feel it's the snare. The 4 beat needs a loud crack with sustain/reverb.
I want something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EgB__YratE
But without the 80s snare. More a "crack", but that big roomy drum. I changed the verb to a Hall this morning, and it seems to help.
Thanks, Johnny. I'm making notes of all this and will see what I can do. I kinda like lean mixes (see that JMC video I just posted ^). But, I do think it needs like one more element and then something to get rid of the plod. I just can't pinpoint what yet. You guys gave me suggestions and confirmed what I'm hearing, so I'll see what I come up with.
Nola
Well-known member
BTW, I did a version with Jazz style drum programming. I was going to go with it b/c the intricacy was taking some emphasis off the 4 beat, which should be strong in 6/8, but wasn't for whatever reason. Maybe I will post that and see what people think. It took away some of the plod for "vibe". I ditched it last week, but maybe it was more the right track.
VomitHatSteve
Hat STYLE. Not contents.
It seems like there are some timing issues in the 6/8 part. Like some of the snares are rushing in whit a ghost hit apropos of nothing. e.g 0:36
102 is pretty slow for 6/8. The human heartbeat - which averages somewhere around 60 bpm - is generally thought of as the baseline for this kind of thing. So your standard 120 bpm 4/4 rock beat with kick on 1 and snare on 3 is lands more or less in-sync with that. In order to match that feel in 6/8 with kick on 1 and snare on 4, your tempo has to be closer to 180.
That being said, a more complex drum pattern might make it feel more energetic. Right now, everything is very straight.
The kick is also pretty buried, so it's not driving much either way.
102 is pretty slow for 6/8. The human heartbeat - which averages somewhere around 60 bpm - is generally thought of as the baseline for this kind of thing. So your standard 120 bpm 4/4 rock beat with kick on 1 and snare on 3 is lands more or less in-sync with that. In order to match that feel in 6/8 with kick on 1 and snare on 4, your tempo has to be closer to 180.
That being said, a more complex drum pattern might make it feel more energetic. Right now, everything is very straight.
The kick is also pretty buried, so it's not driving much either way.
Nola
Well-known member
Yeah, agreed, but if I sped things up the vocal was much too fast, almost like rapping. This was the natural tempo for the vocal when strumming guitar and singing.
Last edited:
Nola
Well-known member
Thanks, Robus. Ditched it.
I'll just stick with the original plodding beat and spice it up with some ghost notes.
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
skipping comments until I listen and comment myself...
Drums appear to be lagging behind a bit - or it's the guitars that are just slightly ahead. The vocals sound better on this one, though it's that same mic I'm guessing. There's just something about the vocals here that sounds better; maybe they're just not competing with the guitars as much. They're more consistent, I think. The lines where you trail off, typically, are more up front. Did you edit the volume manually on the lead vocal at all? I believe some harmonies wold enhance the vocal nicely. Not even traditional kinds, maybe just some odd things here and there. Like on the "just want to scream" line - something should be in the background or sides to give more emphasis there. It's very monotone with no emotion throughout.
Guitars sound good, and I really like the snare, actually. Sounded good to me.
Drums appear to be lagging behind a bit - or it's the guitars that are just slightly ahead. The vocals sound better on this one, though it's that same mic I'm guessing. There's just something about the vocals here that sounds better; maybe they're just not competing with the guitars as much. They're more consistent, I think. The lines where you trail off, typically, are more up front. Did you edit the volume manually on the lead vocal at all? I believe some harmonies wold enhance the vocal nicely. Not even traditional kinds, maybe just some odd things here and there. Like on the "just want to scream" line - something should be in the background or sides to give more emphasis there. It's very monotone with no emotion throughout.
Guitars sound good, and I really like the snare, actually. Sounded good to me.
Nola
Well-known member
Thanks, guys, think I figured out the cause of the timing issue. Guitars sound great/on time now. I won't repost it, yet, though, because I definitely need to re-track the bass now. Pretty stoked how much tighter it sounds. Could be a blessing in disguise because now I'll add some passing tones in the bass to liven it up, too.