Music to Murder - Insolence and Wine (Don't Make Me Run)

Hey KF :)

Killer tune. Im listening in good consumer buds (little bass heavy). The drums sound great. The bass sounds really good too. The opening bass riff sounds almost like the intensity gets a tad weak for a few notes. Maybe im just not getting it.. It doesnt sound bad in any way.

The vox mix level wise is good i think. The vocal harmonies in the middle do seem congested.. I think its just cause they are sorta free form ish.. Meaning they arent meant to be these lazer tone perfect harmonies, but each line has a different character. The tracks sound fine, but i wonder if they would be better panned a bit. I find doing guitar harmony lines that the same things that make the two lines sound great panned, make them sorta blurry and mushy panned together. Im not talking about pitch or timing problems.. Im talking about 2 good tracks..Just like different vibrato and such. I dont know.. Was just a perception i got listening. Had to dig deep to find a crit.. This is a good one. Very groovin and well done song.
 
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cakewalkgg said:
Hey KF :)

Killer tune. Im listening in good consumer buds (little bass heavy). The drums sound great. The bass sounds really good too. The opening bass riff sounds almost like the intensity gets a tad weak for a few notes. Maybe im just not getting it.. It doesnt sound bad in any way.

The vox mix level wise is good i think. The vocal harmonies in the middle do seem congested.. I think its just cause they are sorta free form ish.. Meaning they arent meant to be these lazer tone perfect harmonies, but each line has a different character. The tracks sound fine, but i wonder if they would be better panned a bit. I find doing guitar harmony lines that the same things that make the two lines sound great panned, make them sorta blurry and mushy panned together. Im not talking about pitch or timing problems.. Im talking about 2 good tracks..Just like different vibrato and such. I dont know.. Was just a perception i got listening. Had to dig deep to find a crit.. This is a good one. Very groovin and well done song.
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Thanks, cake. Any chance you can get a little more specific about which vocal part? Throughout various parts of this song, there are 1 - 3 vocal harmonies, and I have been sometimes putting one in the middle behind the main vocal and two hard panned out to the sides. I can play with moving the middle harmony to one of the hard panned positions if that's where you are getting the sense of congestion.

This mix is still open because I am playing with some of dobro's suggestions (I actually haven't opened the session in a few days due to other commitments, but I will get back to it soon). Still open to more tweaks and ideas though, for sure.
 
Sure KF

Its mostly on the chorus parts.. Dropbox doesnt show a play timer so i cant give timestamps (im listening on my phone)

"Feels like hes dying"
"So why bother trying"

Is the first where i get it. More the 2nd tome around and only in the middle.. The sides sound cool


I hear it a bit on the "i get by with insolence and wine" too
 
I dont know if a hard pan of one would work.. But the way it is its hard for me to hear each one clearly and i thing its because they are all middle.

Take it fwiw.. I could be wrong here too... Lord knows it wouldnt be the first time
 
@cakewalkgg & @dobro
(& everyone)

Dig it. I hard panned the melody guitar and offset it by hard panning the main harmony vocal out to the other side. I like it! It introduces a lot more stereo movement in the verses (thanks dobro) and it spreads out the vocal tracks so that sense of congestion should be alleviated (thanks cakewalkgg).

I am finding the mix to be much more interesting and open now.

Great suggestions and feedback, guys! Thanks so much.

Link to updated mix (same as the OP) -> https://app.box.com/s/2p7wvelyhil89vazxuktooorsi79ho6j
 
I'm Kindafishy's 'other' half, and I joined after reading how incredibly helpful the folk around here were. Thanks to all for listening and the crits. Just made the song/mix better.
Sam
 
Hi, Kindafishy. I finally got around to listen to this track (along with a few others tonight. I realised I'd been neglecting my feedback). :D

I don't know what I was expecting, but it wasn't this. :D I thought the mix was ok, good playing but generally a little busy in the instrumentation. I thought the overall sound was a little dry, but I acknowledge that reverb is mostly a matter of taste. My main beef is that at no point did a single instrument, either guitar or vocal, step up to take centre stage in the song. In the intro, even the lead guitar intro part was panned off to the side and a little subdued, when I felt it could've been panned more central with a halo of reverb to bring you into the song. Likewise with the vocal. The main vocal doesn't take charge; the panned backing vocals have as much or more presence than the lead vocal. It's as if the whole thing is a diffuse, extended jam rather than a song intended to grab you. It lacks drama, if you see what I mean. This might be the effect you're going for, but I think the way you've approached the mix is lacking in impact and dramatic feel. That said, the parts are all well-played and recorded. :)
 
Bubba po said:
Hi, Kindafishy. I finally got around to listen to this track (along with a few others tonight. I realised I'd been neglecting my feedback). :D

I don't know what I was expecting, but it wasn't this. :D I thought the mix was ok, good playing but generally a little busy in the instrumentation. I thought the overall sound was a little dry, but I acknowledge that reverb is mostly a matter of taste. My main beef is that at no point did a single instrument, either guitar or vocal, step up to take centre stage in the song. In the intro, even the lead guitar intro part was panned off to the side and a little subdued, when I felt it could've been panned more central with a halo of reverb to bring you into the song. Likewise with the vocal. The main vocal doesn't take charge; the panned backing vocals have as much or more presence than the lead vocal. It's as if the whole thing is a diffuse, extended jam rather than a song intended to grab you. It lacks drama, if you see what I mean. This might be the effect you're going for, but I think the way you've approached the mix is lacking in impact and dramatic feel. That said, the parts are all well-played and recorded. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for checking it out and sharing such detailed thoughts, Bp.

Much of what you are touching on in line with how we perform, write and produce together, including the dry mix, busy instrumentation and extended jam feel. This is typical of our style and who we naturally are with all the M2M material. For better or for worse, I am glad that you noticed and it's stuff we will continue to do because that's us. Not all, but many of our songs have these sort of general characteristics. Maybe that's not your thing or maybe you would have approached the structure and arrangement of the song differently, but I can definitely appreciate either of those things. It wouldn't be the same if it wasn't what it is. Obvious statement, I guess, ha ha.

The bass is the instrument that likes to take the centre stage in this tune. The intention is for it to always remind the listener that it is driving for the first half of the song up until the point where it leads out of the middle into the jammy feeling ending. That's why the guitar isn't prominent and why it drops out a lot to allow the bass to have a lot of room and focus. That's what's happening in my head, anyway, but I might have a bad case of mix bias, heh. Maybe I haven't accomplished what I wanted to.

You might have liked the previous iteration of the mix more, as the guitar that is currently panned out to the left was sitting up the middle.

I'm not sure what can be done with the main vocal in terms of taking charge, because as you hear, the delivery is not aggressive. It is a very sly, relaxed, mellow vocal. I am open to suggestions here if you would like to get a little more specific about what you are hearing, or what you would do to accomplish that if this was on your desk. I don't want the guitar to command focus, but if you are thinking of a way that the vocal can do so, I'm all ears.

Thanks again. I really appreciate the thought provoking feedback. This is great stuff.
 
kindafishy said:
Thanks for checking it out and sharing such detailed thoughts, Bp.

Much of what you are touching on in line with how we perform, write and produce together, including the dry mix, busy instrumentation and extended jam feel. This is typical of our style and who we naturally are with all the M2M material. For better or for worse, I am glad that you noticed and it's stuff we will continue to do because that's us. Not all, but many of our songs have these sort of general characteristics. Maybe that's not your thing or maybe you would have approached the structure and arrangement of the song differently, but I can definitely appreciate either of those things. It wouldn't be the same if it wasn't what it is. Obvious statement, I guess, ha ha.

The bass is the instrument that likes to take the centre stage in this tune. The intention is for it to always remind the listener that it is driving for the first half of the song up until the point where it leads out of the middle into the jammy feeling ending. That's why the guitar isn't prominent and why it drops out a lot to allow the bass to have a lot of room and focus. That's what's happening in my head, anyway, but I might have a bad case of mix bias, heh. Maybe I haven't accomplished what I wanted to.

You might have liked the previous iteration of the mix more, as the guitar that is currently panned out to the left was sitting up the middle.

I'm not sure what can be done with the main vocal in terms of taking charge, because as you hear, the delivery is not aggressive. It is a very sly, relaxed, mellow vocal. I am open to suggestions here if you would like to get a little more specific about what you are hearing, or what you would do to accomplish that if this was on your desk. I don't want the guitar to command focus, but if you are thinking of a way that the vocal can do so, I'm all ears.

Thanks again. I really appreciate the thought provoking feedback. This is great stuff.
Click to expand...

Hey, if that's how your band writes its music, then who am I to argue with that? :D I think what I meant was that no single (typically lead) instrument or vocal was the focus of the song. I was offering an arrangement critique rather than mix critique which I suppose is a bit of a no-no. I'm used to most efforts in here being the product of one or two people. If your band writes its music democratically in this way, then there's no more to be said. :D
 
Wow man, this is pretty damn good....I know you guys from the Reaper forum (KF & Sammy)...No shortage of talent between you guys, that's for sure...

I've listened to all the links from the first post, so I really don't know what tweaks you've done, but I really don't have any nits that would matter, seems you've got it pretty much under control, & anything I might suggest probably wouldn't matter anyway...

Super bad-ass bass tone on this guys, everything really, I know the vocals are "it" in a song, but the bass is the star in this song...

If you wanted a really, super-picky nit from me, maybe bring the kick up just a hair, but other than that, I don't have anything....

Super job!!!
 
Bubba po said:
Hey, if that's how your band writes its music, then who am I to argue with that? :D I think what I meant was that no single (typically lead) instrument or vocal was the focus of the song. I was offering an arrangement critique rather than mix critique which I suppose is a bit of a no-no. I'm used to most efforts in here being the product of one or two people. If your band writes its music democratically in this way, then there's no more to be said. :D
Click to expand...

Our band is 2 guys :D. It is an ongoing writing partnership though. We've got 8 or 9 tunes done and more to come once this set of mixes is complete. So, it's a band, yeah. Two guys at the core and when we get picked up by an international label, we will fill out the rest of the members :guitar: lol...

Arrangement critique is definitely not off the table. I said that nothing is off limits, and that is sincere. I/we are open to any sort of feedback. We know what we like and we like what we do, yes, but I think we are humble guys and our egos don't ever get in the way of listening to what anyone wants to share. Whereas we might not be able to do anything about it for this song, we have in the past, and will continue to fold thoughts and opinions into new material that we are working on.

Still open to thoughts on those main vocals if you have something in mind.
 
minerman said:
Wow man, this is pretty damn good....I know you guys from the Reaper forum (KF & Sammy)...No shortage of talent between you guys, that's for sure...

I've listened to all the links from the first post, so I really don't know what tweaks you've done, but I really don't have any nits that would matter, seems you've got it pretty much under control, & anything I might suggest probably wouldn't matter anyway...

Super bad-ass bass tone on this guys, everything really, I know the vocals are "it" in a song, but the bass is the star in this song...

If you wanted a really, super-picky nit from me, maybe bring the kick up just a hair, but other than that, I don't have anything....

Super job!!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the flattering comments minerman :).

All links point to the same version! I was just making it easy for folks to get at the newest one. Big tweaks, actually! Moved some stuff to different positions, muted a part and adjusted levels and EQ here and there. I love the straight forward, non-sugar-coated feedback that happens around here. I hope that never changes.

I'll check out the kick to see what more I can squeeze out of it.

Thanks (miner)man!
 
Bubba po said:
Hi, Kindafishy. I finally got around to listen to this track (along with a few others tonight. I realised I'd been neglecting my feedback). :D

I don't know what I was expecting, but it wasn't this. :D I thought the mix was ok, good playing but generally a little busy in the instrumentation. I thought the overall sound was a little dry, but I acknowledge that reverb is mostly a matter of taste. My main beef is that at no point did a single instrument, either guitar or vocal, step up to take centre stage in the song. In the intro, even the lead guitar intro part was panned off to the side and a little subdued, when I felt it could've been panned more central with a halo of reverb to bring you into the song. Likewise with the vocal. The main vocal doesn't take charge; the panned backing vocals have as much or more presence than the lead vocal. It's as if the whole thing is a diffuse, extended jam rather than a song intended to grab you. It lacks drama, if you see what I mean. This might be the effect you're going for, but I think the way you've approached the mix is lacking in impact and dramatic feel. That said, the parts are all well-played and recorded. :)
Click to expand...

First, I'm no expert in mixing yet. Second, I'm using pc speakers, so...I'll echo Bubba po's comments.

I was also waiting for something to grab me - a high point - near the end of the song in the same way that the bass parts did early on.
I'm not sure if the "i get back with insolence" plus the solo after it, was meant to be the "chorus" part, the high point, because the "don't make me run" part, to me plays out like 'fade out' part (not sure if I made myself clear with that one).

Maybe you can extend the guitar solo, repeat a few bars? Just to make an impact, before 'coming down' on the "don't make me run" part?

But then, maybe you weren't aiming for that. If that's the case, you can ignore my comments (or you can consider them on the next song you're working on). Sorry, that my comment was on the arrangement, instead of the mix.
 
the kelvinator said:
First, I'm no expert in mixing yet. Second, I'm using pc speakers, so...I'll echo Bubba po's comments.

I was also waiting for something to grab me - a high point - near the end of the song in the same way that the bass parts did early on.
I'm not sure if the "i get back with insolence" plus the solo after it, was meant to be the "chorus" part, the high point, because the "don't make me run" part, to me plays out like 'fade out' part (not sure if I made myself clear with that one).

Maybe you can extend the guitar solo, repeat a few bars? Just to make an impact, before 'coming down' on the "don't make me run" part?

But then, maybe you weren't aiming for that. If that's the case, you can ignore my comments (or you can consider them on the next song you're working on). Sorry, that my comment was on the arrangement, instead of the mix.
Click to expand...

Thanks kelvinator :).

The choruses are the "feels like he's dying, so why bother trying" parts. Everything after the "insolence and wine" bit is a jam to close out the tune. The live version is 17 minutes long. It just grooves out until the end of the tune. Yes, your fade out thought makes sense, only it doesn't fade out. Same thing though, kinda, yeah. A slightly a non-standard structure I guess because after the first half of the song, there are no more verse or chorus bits.

Definitely not ignoring your comments! For sure, anything about arrangements is most welcome. This version of Insolence is "in the can", but nobody ever stops changing and evolving as a songwriter. We very often carry thoughts forward to other songs.

Thanks for the listen and the thoughts. Great stuff :).
 
kindafishy said:
Everything after the "insolence and wine" bit is a jam to close out the tune. The live version is 17 minutes long.
Click to expand...

That's it. I think you mentioned somewhere, "extended jam", and originally I was gonna say, it felt short for a "jam" song - under 4 minutes (?). Anyway, I wouldn't question the decision why you cut it short. But just to throw some thoughts, I like some sort-of 'extended jam' songs myself. They're 5, 7 and one even 10 minutes long. And they have lot's repetition, repeating especially the catchiest parts. With top notch playing like yours, I wouldn't mind listening a few repetition.

Back to the song, I read somewhere that "if you're mix sounds good in pc speakers, then it's good". I would say it sounds great!
I'll listen with my cans next time. BTW, some parts of the vocals, to me, has that early-Stone Temple Pilots/Scott Weiland vibe.:thumbs up:
 
the kelvinator said:
That's it. I think you mentioned somewhere, "extended jam", and originally I was gonna say, it felt short for a "jam" song - under 4 minutes (?). Anyway, I wouldn't question the decision why you cut it short. But just to throw some thoughts, I like some sort-of 'extended jam' songs myself. They're 5, 7 and one even 10 minutes long. And they have lot's repetition, repeating especially the catchiest parts. With top notch playing like yours, I wouldn't mind listening a few repetition.

Back to the song, I read somewhere that "if you're mix sounds good in pc speakers, then it's good". I would say it sounds great!
I'll listen with my cans next time. BTW, some parts of the vocals, to me, has that early-Stone Temple Pilots/Scott Weiland vibe.:thumbs up:
Click to expand...

Aw, man. Thank you so much. You're way too kind (but I like it)! :D

Big appreciation!
 
I listened to both mixes and I can't come up with anything to bitch about. Either I don't have the speakers for it or I just like it the way it is. Cool song. I like rock with a blues edge. If you guys get all cranked up and do one in this vein at 4X the speed, be sure to post it, I'll put it on my mp3 player.
 
NotThatBright said:
I listened to both mixes and I can't come up with anything to bitch about. Either I don't have the speakers for it or I just like it the way it is. Cool song. I like rock with a blues edge. If you guys get all cranked up and do one in this vein at 4X the speed, be sure to post it, I'll put it on my mp3 player.
Click to expand...

Hey, thanks NTB. None of the songs that are being mixed right now get into that sort of tempo, but once this round of mixes is done and we get back into recording more tunes, it could happen. Actually, I do have one in the hopper that while not quite 4x this, might float yer boat. Hmmmm. Yeah. Gonna do it.

Much obliged, man. Cheers!
 
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