Muddy and thin at the same time? Need a bit of help

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dmytrel

New member
Hey guys

I have done some recording - I had an older Tascam which did me proud, but my Tascam2488neo isn't (yet) my friend.

Why is this so muddy? When I play just the drum and bass track it sound okay, I think the keys are adding to muddiness. Also I don't like how thin the keys sound.

I don't know what i expect, but you guys are better than I am (from what I've heard) - how would you remix this?

 
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You might want to ask a mod to move this to the mp3 clinic.

I'd consider this more "woofy" than muddy. It sounds like you've got a lot of frequency build-up in the lows. Maybe put some High-pass filters on a few tracks.
 
VomitHatSteve said:
You might want to ask a mod to move this to the mp3 clinic.

I'd consider this more "woofy" than muddy. It sounds like you've got a lot of frequency build-up in the lows. Maybe put some High-pass filters on a few tracks.
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Great suggestion. I'm playing with remixing. It sounds like the Rhodes actually is adding most of all to that effect, and the funny thing is it's hard to pinpoint out of the the full mix. A lot of low Rhodes notes that just mulch into the woofiness.

I put a high pass on the synth keys, which I like. I'm going to totally redo the Rhodes track though, I just can't get it to sound right. It makes a difference when its taken out but its hard to follow in the mix.

Thanks for the tips, hoping a new rhodes track that isn't so heavy on the low tones will help it out
 
Is that a real rhoads? Usually you will have more bark when the hammers hit. Driving the amp (real or fake) will make it cut better. The arrangement may be part of the issue so moving the part to a higher register or lower could help. To me it sounds like there isn't much happening in the upper midrage. Maybe that is intentional for a voice or lead instrument though.
 
eddie_bowers said:
Is that a real rhoads? Usually you will have more bark when the hammers hit. Driving the amp (real or fake) will make it cut better. The arrangement may be part of the issue so moving the part to a higher register or lower could help. To me it sounds like there isn't much happening in the upper midrage. Maybe that is intentional for a voice or lead instrument though.
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Yes, it's a real Rhodes but I don't have a pre-amp at all. I've just been using the Tascam, which hasn't done a great job.

Can you recommend a good pre-amp for the Rhodes? I think that's probably the missing piece.

Also - can you tell me if I did a better job on this one, in terms of the Rhodes? I really need a pre-amp.

As for high-pass, I'm not good at that one. When I use it, it tends to strip away more of the sound than I'd like.

Do you guys run everything through a pre-amp that isn't active? My bass is active, but the guitar and the Rhodes are not. I think my synth doesn't need a preamp.

Anyway - what do you think about this one, do you think it's better on the Rhodes, or still not quite there?

 
Unless my missing something, the Rhodes shouldn't need a preamp, unless you can't get enough level out of it. That is the only thing a preamp does. Unless you are thinking of a direct box.

I'm not in a position to listen right now, but maybe you could eq down some of the 200hz and add some 2k or 3k to brighten it up a bit. You may benighted ot need it so loud in the mix if it is brighter, which could help with your problem.
 
The level isn't that bad really. I do get a lot of low hum from it though when I work with the trim. Maybe I could get a little EQ effect pedal for it.
 
I just looked up your tascam, it has 4 preamps, unless you are needing to record all the parts at once, you don't need to buy a preamp.

If you are getting noise from plugging the keyboard directly in, you need a di box that will plug into the xlr inputs on the neo.

You have two problems with both mixes:

1. as was mentioned before, all the parts are in the same octave, so they are using the same batch of frequencies, (mostly lower mid, in this case)

2. You aren't doing anything with the upper midrange on any of the instruments.

For the bass, add a couple db of 800hz and a db or two of high shelf at 2-3k. This will balance against the low end and (maybe) allow you to drop the volume while still hearing it clearly.

I'm having a hard time identifying the instruments that are playing, but there is something with an envelope follower, or wah...brighten that up (3-5k), or suck out some 200hz..or both

Add a little bit of 1k and high shelf at 8k to the Rhodes

Start doing stuff like that, if you can't go back and play some of the parts in a different octave.

The trick is to give every instrument it's own space to occupy. You can do that with the arrangement, by making sure that each instrument has a part that doesn't clash or step on another part. This can be done with instrument choice and octave choice. More than one instrument can occupy the same octave, if they sound different enough from each other. (guitar and trumpet, for example)

Also, you can use EQ to carve out space for different instruments. For example, the note definition of bass is around 800hz, so you let the bass occupy that and give the Rhodes 1khz. So you carve a little 800hz out of the rhodes and add it to the bass. Do that with all instruments that are conflicting with each other. The sound of the instrument by itself doesn't matter, how it fits in the mix does.
 
Farview said:
I just looked up your tascam, it has 4 preamps, unless you are needing to record all the parts at once, you don't need to buy a preamp.

If you are getting noise from plugging the keyboard directly in, you need a di box that will plug into the xlr inputs on the neo.

You have two problems with both mixes:

1. as was mentioned before, all the parts are in the same octave, so they are using the same batch of frequencies, (mostly lower mid, in this case)

2. You aren't doing anything with the upper midrange on any of the instruments.

For the bass, add a couple db of 800hz and a db or two of high shelf at 2-3k. This will balance against the low end and (maybe) allow you to drop the volume while still hearing it clearly.

I'm having a hard time identifying the instruments that are playing, but there is something with an envelope follower, or wah...brighten that up (3-5k), or suck out some 200hz..or both

Add a little bit of 1k and high shelf at 8k to the Rhodes

Start doing stuff like that, if you can't go back and play some of the parts in a different octave.

The trick is to give every instrument it's own space to occupy. You can do that with the arrangement, by making sure that each instrument has a part that doesn't clash or step on another part. This can be done with instrument choice and octave choice. More than one instrument can occupy the same octave, if they sound different enough from each other. (guitar and trumpet, for example)

Also, you can use EQ to carve out space for different instruments. For example, the note definition of bass is around 800hz, so you let the bass occupy that and give the Rhodes 1khz. So you carve a little 800hz out of the rhodes and add it to the bass. Do that with all instruments that are conflicting with each other. The sound of the instrument by itself doesn't matter, how it fits in the mix does.
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Wow, so much to learn. Thank you for all of these tips. On my next song, I'll be keeping in mind trying to occupy the higher registers, especially with the Rhodes. It'd also help to get some better speakers. I mix on headphones and it sounds one way, but then I put it through my speakers and I notice a lot more muddiness.

Seriously, this is so helpful I can't even tell you. Thank you!
 
I would try to use some reference tracks of your favorite artists in this genre, and try too sculpt the individual tracks to match (to the point where it's still your sound) using eq, hi/low/band pass filters, and experiment with tape saturation/aural exciter plugins to make the instruments "pop out"
 
I have one more track for you guys to look at. This one was actually recorded before the Double Vision, but after Distress Call. I feel like this is my best mix, but do you think the EQ is too heavy on the lows as well?
 
There is also another trap that some people fall into, that might be at play here. Everyone has a certain tonality that they are drawn to, certain frequencies that they really like and others that they really hate. Some people, especially when they first start mixing, will solo each instrument and make the instrument sound 'good' by itself.

The problem is, what sounds 'good' is that favored tonality. So, eventually all the instruments end up having the same tonality, which makes it hard to differentiate the different instruments in the mix.

For example, if you like 'warm', 'mellow' sounding instruments, you would end up with a lot of energy in the 100hz to 300hz range, and nearly nothing in the 2khz to 3khz range. This will lead to something like what you are ending up with.

Your headphones might also be part of the problem. They might be overly bright, which will lead to an overly dark mix, like you have. They also might just not be sealing to your head correctly, which will keep you from getting the low end response that you could get. (that's one of the problems with mixing with headphones, the sound can change when you get a hair cut). The idea of comparing reference CD's on the headphones while you are mixing is a good one. You want to reference them during the mix, because it is easy to get used to the way your mix sounds, so you need something to pull you back to reality.
 
Farview said:
There is also another trap that some people fall into, that might be at play here. Everyone has a certain tonality that they are drawn to, certain frequencies that they really like and others that they really hate. Some people, especially when they first start mixing, will solo each instrument and make the instrument sound 'good' by itself.

The problem is, what sounds 'good' is that favored tonality. So, eventually all the instruments end up having the same tonality, which makes it hard to differentiate the different instruments in the mix.
.
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That's so true, and for sure that's a trap I fall into. I always am shooting for the lower bass sounds, sometimes the treble makes me cringe a little bit. but I need to branch out and use some of that treble register.
 
dmytrel said:
That's so true, and for sure that's a trap I fall into. I always am shooting for the lower bass sounds, sometimes the treble makes me cringe a little bit. but I need to branch out and use some of that treble register.
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You can get away with thinning out certain instruments a lot in a mix. If they are soloed, they will sound stupid, but they can be perfect in the mix.

A good example of this would be an acoustic guitar rhythm part in a rock mix filled with distorted guitar, hammond, etc... The job of the acoustic guitar in the mix has to do with the rhythmic quality of it, so you can get rid of all the warm lows and lower midrange and concentrate on the sound of the picking. Alone, it sounds like crap, in the mix it does it's job. (since it's job could be handled with some shakers)
 
Crazy Luke said:
There is an emphasis on the low end here, but that may be due to instrument and octave range choices. The drums are too much in the background, so hi-hat, cymbals, side-stick/snare aren't flavoring up the higher register. Keys playing some parts in a higher octave, would improve the balance of highs that would give frequencies above 3K it's due.
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Thank you for the feedback. I will definitely start focusing on some of the highs for my next songs.

The thing with the Rhodes, is I listen to Herbie Hancock and salivate over the way it sounds. Mine, even though it's a legit Rhodes, just doesn't do it. I wish I knew what he was playing through.

I think collaboration would help me a lot, since I tend to steer away from high-end sounds, hearing something someone else could put to a bassline would be fun.
 
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