An Angel Said - alterntaive rock pop

andrushkiwt

andrushkiwt

Well-known member
Alright, this might be the last of my redo's for awhile. I wrote this over a year ago and posted a version I wasn't ever really happy with. The drum/bass foundation, particularly in transition sections, was sloppy and poorly thought out. I've always concentrated more on the actual verse/chorus and not until the last few months have I put more effort and thought into transitions, segue's, and interludes. When I listened to the old version, the drums didn't seem well thought out and the song didn't feel complete/whole. Hopefully, I've solved that by spending more time on it.

Mixwise, I just tried to not have too much harshness from the guitars/cymbals. That seems to be my consistent theme - battling the upper midrange of the guitars/vocals/drums. Obviously, I prefer the midrange driven focus of Dual Rec's/Orange/Marshalls, and I sometimes wish I had an engineer/tech helping me identify which equipment brands/models would be good for this sound I'm trying to develop. I turn knobs until it sounds good, make cuts where appropriate, and cross my fingers. Given I'm going with a traditional 2 guitar sets, bass, drums, vocals setup, there should be some staples for this genre that would help me blend in with the big boys - the commercial alt rock pop tunes, so that when my song jumps on in the middle of a playlist, it will seamlessly fit in. I use two mics on each virtual cabinet, a few inches from the speakers and slightly offcentered (both mics, that is). Bass is mic'd a lot farther away, as I found that I get more clarity that way, maybe 8-10in from the cab.

What is setting this apart from commercial rock/pop? Yeah, real amps would help, but many records are made today that use amp sims, whether re-amped or DI. What's my next step? What's holding me back?

thanks guys





I wish you were here, not so far down.
I'd turn back time to save you from the ground
that holds you deep, a place so sound.
I'd wait forever see your face somehow.

Your angel said "I'm not bleeding here,
in this space where everything's so clear".
An angel said, "I'm not fading out,
we have our reasons and everyone has doubt".

Save me. I'm far from yesterday.
Take it from my hands and wipe the tears away.
Lately I miss the good old days.
The sun is farther now, the darkness can't escape.

By myself, so far from clear,
the shadows follow the steps that led me here
into this night. I see you now. I'd swear that my dreams
are sinking in this world.

Your angel said, "I'm not bleeding now,
in this space where time won't let me out".
An angel said, "I'm not fading out. We have our
reasons and everyone has doubt".

As I lay here in bed, I regret the things I never said.
 
Production sounds good :thumbs up:

May want to tune the vocals. Heard some pitchy stuff here and there.

The drums need to be "humanized" especially the fills.

The beginning section lasts too long and sounds like a chant after a while. When the bass kicks in (2:39) maybe volume-swell it; it seems a tad abrupt to me.
 
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HeavyMusic3000 said:
May want to tune the vocals. Heard some pitchy stuff here and there.
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Point out where. Give me a time, exactly. Sorry man, they were glossed over with Melodyne and I spent over an hour on each vocal channel. If something was that far off, I would have corrected it. So, show me a time. thnx

HeavyMusic3000 said:
The drums need to be "humanized" especially the fills.
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I don't think they could be any more humanized considering I wrote them, note for note, manually. Nothing is on the time grid, and every note is within 1/8 of the line, either way. That's more than enough for a realistic feel...actually, the humanize feature doesn't even move them that far. :) . I'll have to pass on this comment, but thanks for listening.
 
andrushkiwt said:
Point out where. Give me a time, exactly. Sorry man, they were glossed over with Melodyne and I spent over an hour on each vocal channel. If something was that far off, I would have corrected it. So, show me a time. thnx
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I started going through it and noting every time it sounded pitchy and there were enough places for me to think that maybe I'm losing my mind because it seems obvious to me. Maybe putting each vocal through something like ReaTune, just as a double-check, wouldn't hurt. Some of the note bends sound a tad shaky is all I'm saying.

I don't think they could be any more humanized considering I wrote them, note for note, manually. Nothing is on the time grid, and every note is within 1/8 of the line, either way. That's more than enough for a realistic feel...actually, the humanize feature doesn't even move them that far. :) . I'll have to pass on this comment, but thanks for listening.
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Fair enough. It sounds choppy, like the way Elaine from "Seinfeld" dances. There's no pocket. IMHO.
 
HeavyMusic3000 said:
I started going through it and noting every time it sounded pitchy and there were enough places for me to think that maybe I'm losing my mind because it seems obvious to me. Maybe putting each vocal through something like ReaTune, just as a double-check, wouldn't hurt. Some of the note bends sound a tad shaky is all I'm saying.
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I don't know what you're hearing dude. There is a stereo chorus and a double vocal underneath. Maybe you're hearing the other take and the chorus effect.
 
I don't really hear any pitch issues with the vox at all actually.
I do find the drumbs have an 'awkward' feel to them ..... it's subtle but there ......
but it's a nice song mang.
 
Lt. Bob said:
I don't really hear any pitch issues with the vox at all actually.
I do find the drumbs have an 'awkward' feel to them ..... it's subtle but there ......
but it's a nice song mang.
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Thnx, I don't know what you mean about that, but maybe somebody can elaborate. thnx for the listen
 
andrushkiwt said:
Thnx, I don't know what you mean about that, but maybe somebody can elaborate. thnx for the listen
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I was quite clear ..... the drumbs are awkward sounding ...... if it were a drummer trying out for my band I'd figure he didn't totally have the 'feel' thing down.

The fact that you don't know what I mean by that is why it's like that.
I'm assuming you're not primarily a drummer ....

From your general responses i don't really get the feeling you're looking for actual feedback, but that's what I hear.
Ya' know, people can point out things they hear without meaning anything negative per se.

Regardless it's only slight and easy to miss ....... and other than that I think it's a fine recording and a nice song.
 
Lt. Bob said:
I was quite clear ..... the drumbs are awkward sounding ...... if it were a drummer trying out for my band I'd figure he didn't totally have the 'feel' thing down.

The fact that you don't know what I mean by that is why it's like that.
I'm assuming you're not primarily a drummer ....
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I can drum most things that are posted in the clinic without an issue...this would be rather easy. And it was written that way...pretty straightforward. The same fill is repeated throughout, with only a slight modification each time it's played. There is a fill at the end which was ad-lib, and that part wasn't really a "drum" decision, it was a full-band, how-do-we-end-it decision. I forgot I threw that in at the end spontaneously, and if that's what you're referring to, I can see your opinion on that. As for the rest of the tune, and its drum, nope, I don't get ya at all. And yes, I drum.

You should be able to explain, with words, what you mean. If I told you your guitars were amatuerish, you'd have a right to ask me what made me think that. It wouldn't be an appropriate response for me to say, "the fact you're asking is enough". If I make that claim, I should be able to back it up.

I'm not doubting you're hearing what you are, but unless you're going to elaborate, it doesn't help much. Then, you just appear to be dissing something without care for helping.

Of the dozens of tunes I've posted here, I would never have thought this is the one that would get the drums called out. In my opinion, it far surpasses previous posts in terms of bass/drums collaboration. thnx
 
I kinda hear what people are saying about the drums, but the bottom line is programming drums will never sound like a real drummer.

I'll try to explain it best I hear it: basically a real drummer will be off the beat, but they'll also be in the "pocket" or "grooving" with those tiny mishaps. I can hear some of your hits sound off the grid in order to humanize the beat, but they don't sound in the pocket like a real drummer would. I also hear what sounded like a forced triplet hit in there where a triplet didn't fit (could be wrong and maybe that note was just off the grid more). It's around the 3 minute mark since you want specifics.

I almost think when programming drums you're better off being the same amount off with each hit. Like if doing a fill and you're -3 off the grid then make all the fill -3 off the grid instead of a few at -3, some at -2, etc because great drummers breath right before a fill so they nail it all in time. I also think embracing the drum machine is a good idea and not trying to make it overly human. Big Black used a drum machine at shows and were a pro band (and Albina a master engineer). He didn't care, and said it's more reliable than a real drummer. There is a lot of obsession over drums being human, and IMO it's really not that important. If you want human take one of the preset grooves closest to your song and then just tinker with it because that's a human playing. You can make a drum machine groove though (e.g. see Beer Can by Beck).

As to what's keeping your mix back from commercial mixes? I don't know. Like you said, a pro engineer in a good room would be my guess. Your mixes could use more depth (3D wise). The vocals have depth but the other instruments not so much. You have L/R panning covered. But who knows...that's all minutia in a way, and song is most important. Nobody is ever going to say "this mix sounds pro so I'm putting it in my playlist"...they will say "I like this song so I'm putting it in my playlist." Playing live shows goes a long way in getting into real studios and finding engineers to do all this work for you. If you really want to go the commercial route I think the best think you can do is find a good local drummer and start playing shows.
 
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The idea of 'feel' simply can not be explained other than saying it 'feels' awkward.

And you shouldn't be so thin skinned ..... I didn't "call your drums out" nor was I insulting in any way whatsoever ...... I simply mentioned the lack of 'feel' of the drum lines and specifically said it wasn't that much.

I think what you're looking for is only praise so you've got it .... I did and do think the recording is nice and it's a nice tune ...... IMO (which I'm entitled to ) the drums could 'feel' better.
But they're adequate as they are.

I'm certainly not interested in arguing with you about how perfect you think everything is ..... it's your music and if you think it's perfect then it is.
 
Lt. Bob said:
I didn't "call your drums out" nor was I insulting in any way whatsoever
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And that's where we disagree. Maybe your intention is one thing, but I'm not picking it up as that. In no way do I think it's perfect, but what doesn't help is giving the song, or drum part, a descriptor without offering ways to improve it or avoid it next time. I don't want to argue with you, and I appreciate the listen. I'll try to figure out on my own what the deal is, but the reason I post here is for specific feedback, and with some people that's like pulling teeth. thnx Bob
 
Nola said:
what sounded like a forced triplet hit in there where a triplet didn't fit (could be wrong and maybe that note was just off the grid more). It's around the 3 minute mark since you want specifics.
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Ok, there we go. I'm so used to the song by now that I do think the fills fit, and I don't have that perspective of a first time listener. Basically, it's two songs. The first half and second half. The second half is a new groove and it isn't laid out until the drums kick in. I'll have to spend some time away from the song and come back to it with fresh ears, but I do hear the drums locking in what I think is the right way with the rest of the instruments. Maybe I'm leading the listener to expect something else. So, I'll back off from it for a bit and re-listen in a week or two. Thanks Nola.
 
I listened to the drums. If I had to quibble, the high hats on 3 that come in during the quieter part of the song might feel slightly late on some of the hits. That's pretty subjective as the drums are not quantized nor meant to be. Other than that, they sound fine to me. To me this mix is close to done.

Bob, if you think Taras is fishing for praise you don't understand him. The guy is a total perfectionist who spends weeks on his mixes--it would drive me fricking crazy to do the same. After he has agonized for so long over every bar and somebody says, "the drum feel is off," or "the vocals are pitchy," his reaction is: "can you be more specific?" I get it, although I also find value in people just listening and reacting to the mix without necessarily wanting to nail down to a specific point in the song exactly what is triggering that reaction. I do appreciate Bob's commenting on songs here at the clinic as he is a lifelong professional who has a lot to offer. If he says it feels off to him, that's worth considering.
 
Robus said:
The guy is a total perfectionist who spends weeks on his mixes--it would drive me fricking crazy to do the same. After he has agonized for so long over every bar and somebody says, "the drum feel is off," or "the vocals are pitchy," his reaction is: "can you be more specific?"
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Yes, sorry, I have been known to beat things to death, but only because I feel many people aren't good at communicating specifics. I feel like I'm pulling teeth in order to get a deeper understanding of what someone means or where they are coming from. I don't care about praise...I care about getting the mixes better, but generalities don't help me much. It seems, from Bob, the whole entire drum portion is worthless, but when Nola comments, it's narrowed down to a few fills, and Ray has even a less problem with it. So, this is why I like detailed feedback, I can size it up and I know exactly what someone's talking about. I'm a pain, I get it. thnx for listening
 
Overall, your productions are excellent, IMHO. They sound very close to real records. It's hard to compete with the Bob Horn's of the world because they have all of the best tools. For example, Bob Horn uses a $500 power cable for his Mac rig! He swears that it makes a huge difference. His studio is amazing. His monitors are the best. That's the ilk of mojo the "big boys" use to get the freakish mixes.
 
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