When setting everything to infinity

S

slayfield

New member
Hi guys,

I've been home recording for nearly 15 years now, nothing major but for my own amusement and to share with family and friends. As I imagine like most people, I pick up techniques, tips, methods along the way....sometimes the ones you wish you knew 15 years ago.

Anyway, recently a studio engineer (friend of a friend) came over to check out this song we were recording and reeled back when I had the volume on some tracks turned up from 0. "Everything should be set on infinity, and then ONLY turn the volume down on the tracks to suit" is what he said. when I asked why, he said it causes distortion when they are above 0 but the tracks sounded ok to me?

So the question I forgot to ask him, is what if say the guitar I originally recorded was at a low level? what if I do what he said.....mix down....then find the song barely audible? is this then turned up through mastering or some other process?

I guess I'm at a cross roads, I've nearly finished a new bunch of songs for an album and I'm debating if I should go back and reset everything at infinity, then mix. I'm worried the volume of the songs wont be consistent unless I'm missing something.

Any advice would be great!
 
I hesitate to say that sounds completely wrong because it could be one of those "phone game" things where it's become mangled in translation. But, it makes no sense and I never heard anything like that before.

You'll read in lots of posts here about tracking somewhere between -18 to -12dbFS (eg) with peaks well below 0dbFS. Or something like that. There are other ranges and numbers that can work, depending on the genre, number of total tracks, etc. But, these are where you want alll/most of your tracks to be with the faders in the DAW centered (0) because the faders typically have finer granularity in the middle of their span. You never start with the fader maxed, and I'm pretty sure you'll get a high percentage agreement on that.

Now, if you've got a mix that's not fitting that pattern well, you can go back and adjust the gain on individual tracks, either with a plugin or perhaps in the track settings. (In Logic you can apply gain +/- settings to individual regions.) This is what I'd do with a guitar track that came in really low for some reason, or if I was comping a vocal part and parts of the takes were not consistent enough in volume, but it was big enough chunks that it was easier than applying automation, for instance. Anyway, the point being get your tracks recorded and leveled so faders are centered, often so it sounds pretty musical from the start, and you've still got plenty of headroom on the master. Then start adjusting faders, pan pots, etc. i.e., mixing, but not from "infinity."

Or maybe I've been doing it wrong all this time!
 
Thanks for the response keith.rogers, maybe I didn't understand completely what he meant at the time....but just to make things a bit clearer, here's a screenshot of the multi-track he commented on, he then started turning all my tracks down to 0, then left the rest with me to deal with.... and said don't turn anything up!
Untitled.jpg

Looking back, one of the tracks did peak, but only at a certain spot. And this track in particular was sitting around the -4db mark.......I would agree its probably too loud, do you think maybe he was confused and was referring to 0dbFS of the mix??
 
slayfield said:
Thanks for the response keith.rogers, maybe I didn't understand completely what he meant at the time....but just to make things a bit clearer, here's a screenshot of the multi-track he commented on, he then started turning all my tracks down to 0, then left the rest with me to deal with.... and said don't turn anything up!
View attachment 101697

Looking back, one of the tracks did peak, but only at a certain spot. And this track in particular was sitting around the -4db mark.......I would agree its probably too loud, do you think maybe he was confused and was referring to 0dbFS of the mix??
Click to expand...
The mixer view might have been a better screenshot for what I was thinking of, so I think I'm still confused.

You're adjusting levels all before you start panning? (Everything I see is centered.)
 
It could of been unity Dale, here is the before shot of the mixer (my work);
Untitled.jpg
'
then the after shot when he turned everything down to '0' and said 'dont turn anything up (volume), only down
Untitled2.jpg

sorry for the confusion guys, and my lack of mixer terminology, I guess I just want to know is if it is ok to have the faders above '0' like I had them?

Thanks
 
If you always got distortion when going up past "0"...they would make the faders stop at "0" and not be able to go higher. ;)

"Unity" settings are more applicable when setting up a signal chain in the analog world...and you want to start with the right signal level at the source, and then the rest of the devices in the chain would have their fader/knob closer to unity once you set the level with the first device in the chain....but even there, it's not an absolute.

In the digital world...gain staging is also valuable, and you always try to have your initial signal hot enough, at a good acceptable level...that way, you don't need to push those faders up too much later on when mixing, and instead you might lower them to get bring that initial signal level down to a more acceptable mix level...but bottom line, in the digital world, with 99.9% of most modern DAWs...once the signal is recorded, you CAN work with levels up above zero without any distortion.
What you have to watch out for is the sum of multiple track levels, with their faders up too high...they can push the summed signal beyond digital "0" on your master/stereo bus...and while the DAW math is going to save you from hearing any distortion...when you finally mix down and bring it to your typical 44.1 kHz/16 bit playback format, the "math" will no longer be there to save you from hearing the distortion.

So...as long as you keep your eye on that master/stereo mixdown meter, and make sure you are not going over "0"...the individual faders can go wherever you need them to be to get the right balance.
That said...you want to avoid always raising the most of the track faders above "0"...so throttle back everything in equal proportion, so that if only a couple/few tracks are over zero, it's OK....rather than having only a couple below or at "0"...and the bulk of the tracks over too much.

Again...it ALL starts with the initial recording level of your tracks. You always want to have a solid level, but within acceptable ranges...after that things will fall into place.

Oh...and don't fall into the trap pushing up the faders just to make it sound louder out of your speaker monitors.
IOW...there are two levels...the mix level and balance which is what the track faders are for...and your listening level, which is what the volume knob of the monitor amp(s) is for.
You start by setting the monitor level to a known reference level...usually pink noise set for about 75-85 db SPL at your listening position.
Once you set that...you will have a good listening level, and your mixing of the tracks will be more accurate.
If you want the listening level louder...increase the monitor level, not all the individual tracks levels.
 
I've induced clipping (distortion) in individual tracks by pushing them up too high - even when they were in fact not especially loud. Pulling all the the track faders down is the easy solution, but I've also 'normalized' the track in question, then pulled it's fader down, but I'm then able to get that track's volume where I need it in reference to the other tracks - and not get clipping/distortion.
 
mjbphotos said:
I've induced clipping (distortion) in individual tracks by pushing them up too high.
Click to expand...

Mmm....never heard that happen in my DAW, and I've pushed faders up many times to their max at +12, just to solo a track or for some reason...I never heard it go into digital clipping because of that.

Maybe if you have some sort of plugin on the individual track, and you push it up it might distort...but otherwise, the tracks alone, you can push them to the top, and within most DAWs you won't hear any digital clipping distortion, because it's just a mathematical computation and the 32 bit float is making it work, even though you are technically over "0"....unlike in analog gear where you've got actual signal and electronics.

The other thing...the distortion may well already have been there, part of the record signal, inaudible originally...but when the track is cranked, the already present distortion becomes audible.
 
In your "Before" shot, you do have some clipping and there is a fader nearly at the top, so yeah, you need to turn that down. The horizontal level meter is clipping too. While I do not agree with the "every at unity" philosophy, you shouldn't be clipping on any track.

Also noticed all your tracks are stereo. Is that on purpose?
 
I'm not sure how we got off on to the distortion topic, because what I read in the OP was about a strategy for setting levels that started with everything maxed and then dialing back. Maybe that's one way to do it.

To the OP, if you're worried about making things consistent across songs, you do that in a "mastering" step. I'd go ahead and keep mixing however you have been, but you'll want to check to make sure your bounced mix peaks are below 0dBFS, and have sufficient dynamic range to let you get a consistent level across all songs, just working on the (non-lossy) stereo output. Or maybe you already knew that.
 
Thanks heaps everyone, makes a lot of sense. Definitely will turn those tracks down which are clipping or are too close to '0'. Unfortunately the steel string guitar was recorded with a low signal, in hind sight, I should have boosted the mic signal at the time.
Chili - All my recordings are in mono (except the drums which are purchased loops) but yes in the mixer view they appear in stereo, I think this is from the effects I place on each track. The effects transform the mono signal to stereo. Is that ok?
 
miroslav said:
Mmm....never heard that happen in my DAW, and I've pushed faders up many times to their max at +12, just to solo a track or for some reason...I never heard it go into digital clipping because of that.

Maybe if you have some sort of plugin on the individual track, and you push it up it might distort...but otherwise, the tracks alone, you can push them to the top, and within most DAWs you won't hear any digital clipping distortion, because it's just a mathematical computation and the 32 bit float is making it work, even though you are technically over "0"....unlike in analog gear where you've got actual signal and electronics.

The other thing...the distortion may well already have been there, part of the record signal, inaudible originally...but when the track is cranked, the already present distortion becomes audible.
Click to expand...

The track meters go into the red (usually just the peaks), whether there is actual distortion, I don't know, because I turn them down after that happens.
 
slayfield said:
Thanks heaps everyone, makes a lot of sense. Definitely will turn those tracks down which are clipping or are too close to '0'. Unfortunately the steel string guitar was recorded with a low signal, in hind sight, I should have boosted the mic signal at the time...
Click to expand...
From a quick google, you can use either an Amplify Effect or On-Clip Gain Control (probably the better option) to change the level of an entire clip, so your fader can still operate in a more normal range, instead of trying to use that to make up for a low level track.
 
Two things going on here

1. Your buddy is confusing signal level with fader level. If the signal level (what you see on the meters) goes above zero, you may get distortion, depending on your system. (It is bad practice either way)
If you need to push your fader above zero to get the mix to sound right and the signal level doesn't exceed zero, that's fine.

2. You don't know what unity gain is. Unity gain is the point on a gain control where the signal level coming out of it is the same as the level going in. On mixer faders, it is the zero point. All the negative numbers represent how much gain you are taking away and the positive represent how much gain you are adding to the signal.

Fader position doesn't cause distortion, signal level does. As long as the signal coming out of the faders doesn't hit zero, you are all good.
 
mjbphotos said:
The track meters go into the red (usually just the peaks), whether there is actual distortion, I don't know, because I turn them down after that happens.
Click to expand...

Oh...OK...I thought you were actually hearing it clipping, 'cuz I can literally peg all my meters at + 12 dBFS into solid red...and I don't hear clipping.

Not something anyone should be doing...but seeing red isn't always an immediate concern...only when the final mix is going out.
IOW...as you mix, you're focusing on the balance of the tracks and how everything is sounding, etc...so if a couple of your channels show some red blinking at times...it's not that important for the moment. Once youj have all you tracks level balanced...and you see that the master/stereo meter is hitting read...you group/grab all you channel faders and bring them down a few notches until the master fader level has dropped into the safe zone...assuming the master is set at the "0" mark. or maybe one click below if you want to be real safe.

I just don't see the validity of what the OP was being told to run everything at "0" or less. Sometimes a channel fader even at "0" may already be too hot due to the signal level..etc...and sometimes you have to bump up a channel fader 2-3 clicks above "0" because of low signal level, and it's all good if the master is not clipping.
 
Yeah fuck that dude. If he actually said "infinity" rather than "unity", fuck his horse, too.

He didn't have to throw out your entire mix! If he had wanted to be actually helpful he'd have helped show you ways to get decent levels before the faders so that they could be closer to 0. The least he could have done is to keep your relative levels while bringing the highest one down where he thought it should be. In Reaper that means just selecting all the tracks before turning down the one.

Ultimately all you really needed to do to avoid clipping was to pull down the master fader a little bit. What it actually probly needs, though, is some dynamic control on a couple of tracks and maybe on the mix bus.

The only real benefit to keeping your faders near or below unity is that there's usually a greater range of adjustment below the 0 line than above. Anybody who walks in, looks at your faders without listening, and tells you it's completely wrong is a prick.
 
ashcat_lt said:
Yeah fuck that dude. If he actually said "infinity" rather than "unity", fuck his horse, too.

He didn't have to throw out your entire mix! If he had wanted to be actually helpful he'd have helped show you ways to get decent levels before the faders so that they could be closer to 0. The least he could have done is to keep your relative levels while bringing the highest one down where he thought it should be. In Reaper that means just selecting all the tracks before turning down the one.

Ultimately all you really needed to do to avoid clipping was to pull down the master fader a little bit. What it actually probly needs, though, is some dynamic control on a couple of tracks and maybe on the mix bus.

The only real benefit to keeping your faders near or below unity is that there's usually a greater range of adjustment below the 0 line than above. Anybody who walks in, looks at your faders without listening, and tells you it's completely wrong is a prick.
Click to expand...
+1.

If that guy ever tells you to do something with your mix again, hit him with a shovel until he stops giving you advise. (BTW "stop hitting me with a shovel" qualifies as advise)
 
It took a while, but I think we're coming around to the position I tried to express a little more gently at the start of this ;)
 
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