Using a compressor as limiter for master?

[mesaboogie5050]

Okay, here is what I have going on.

I have used a multi band compressor to compress the lows, low mid range, mid range, and highs.

Now, I am a noob at this stuff. I want the final compression to run through my analog compressor. The reason why, is I've noticed the warm sound I get from it, I'm not getting with any of the free plug ins that come with Logic Pro X.

It can be used as a limiter, as it goes up extremely high on the ratio.

How do I know how high to put it? Because when doing it with plug ins I have always used an adaptive limiter. It does not have a ratio. The ad limiter plugin Just shows the input, the gain, and ceiling DB.

I know you can not tell me what ratio to put it at without hearing the song first. But I guess what I am asking, is what am I looking for? since I'm not really compressing in the traditional sense, like with each instrument when mixing, or even the multi band compression. Since, I am compressing the entire song, what am I looking for? How much compression is typical?

I need it to be enough that I can turn the make up gain up loud enough to use it like the Ad limiter and go somewhere around -2db. To bring the whole song up to volume.

So, I understand how to use a compressor as a limiter... On a track. Say, drums. But I do not understand how to do it on an entire song, because I don't want to squash all the dynamics completely.

If I turn the thing up past 5:1 into the limiting spectrum will I not squash the song by doing so? And is that why an adaptive limiter does it without a ratio? Or does it have a ratio I don't know about?

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I want the final compression to run through my analog compressor. The reason why, is I've noticed the warm sound I get from it, I'm not getting with any of the free plug ins that come with Logic Pro X.

What high end analog compressor is this that's so much better than an appropriate and properly used plugin?

How do I know how high to put it?

Make is sound good and/or loud enough.

 

[Farview]

Here's the thing: The ad limiter is a brick wall limiter. It's ratio is basically infinity/1. It is also 2-3 orders of magnitude faster than anything you will have laying around the studio. That is the proper thing to have at the end of a mastering chain, because that is what it was designed to do.

Multi-band compressors are great for fixing things with very specific problems, or trying to make a lot of disparate material sound similar (like before the transmitter of a radio station), but tend to not be as musical as a normal broadband compressor.

I too ask what sort of super kick-ass hardware compressor do you have that is that much better than the plugins?

 

[mesaboogie5050]

It is a universal audio, LA series. This compressor is not mine. It was left here, along with some nice pre amps from the guy I'm in a band with.

So, basically, I set it to infinity? And then it's much like an ad limiter? After infinity how do I know where to put the threshold? Because I do not want it squashing the audio at a ratio of infinity? That is the confusing part. If I let any go through it set with a ratio like that, won't it flatten it? Or not really if I only allow a little bit?

I may still use ad limiter plug in at the end. But I wanted to try to run it through this first. I messed with one of my own compressors a few weeks ago and had fun with it which is what made me want to mess with this one. Although I have never messed with an outboard on mastering the track, only on a single instrument.

It could be a placebo affect. But it seems like it sounds different. Rather it sounds much different or not, I really just want to understand the principles even if I went with a plug in in the end.

 

[mesaboogie5050]

So I am reading elsewhere that I do not want to set it to infinity that it would squash. So what is the ad limiter doing? How is it not squashing it?

The person who owns this equipment allows his son to use it but his son knows nothing about it. When I asked the father about it, he went into all types of things I could not understand. He was telling to just set it where it sounds right. But I don't trust my ears when I am not well trained in this yet so I need some kind of idea.

How does the ad limiter set to infinity without squashing?

 

[Tadpui]

I think the point of a limiter when mastering is to make sure that the signal doesn't exceed the threshold at all. So you need an infinite ratio and a very hard knee so that the signal is clipped off very quickly instead of being allowed to exceed the threshold for even a fraction of a second. In this kind of application, you'd set the threshold to whatever your target is (I only know about home-brewed "mastering" in the digital domain, so I use something like -0.3 dB or -0.1 dB as the absolute limit.

I doesn't sound squashed because you're not driving it hard enough to constantly be triggering the limiter. It'll just shave off any big peaks. But it will do this very aggressively so you will want to smooth out the dynamics a bit with a somewhat gentle compressor or a leveling amplifier first. And hey, guess what LA stands for? I'd just use it for what it's renowned for: that initial pass of smoothing the dynamics, and not so much as a brick-wall limiter.

 

[mesaboogie5050]

Okay, I am seeing the difference in that and a brick wall limiter. Lets say I use ad limiter as brick wall limiter. How do I go about not squashing it? If the ratio is at infinity, if I just allow say, 3 or 4db of gain reduction, but I use the output on it to turn the track up loud so I can get it up to 0db, what happens there?

Again this is more about understanding what is going on rather than the equipment it's self.

So, in using a limiter to make it louder, not really to compress dynamics what does one need to do? Only let it compress about 3db? And crank the output?

 

[Farview]

It is a universal audio, LA series.

Which one? If it's an LA-2A, LA-3A or LA-4A, it doesn't have a set-able ratio.

So, basically, I set it to infinity? And then it's much like an ad limiter? After infinity how do I know where to put the threshold? Because I do not want it squashing the audio at a ratio of infinity? That is the confusing part. If I let any go through it set with a ratio like that, won't it flatten it? Or not really if I only allow a little bit?

That is why that compressor isn't the right tool for the job. It isn't fast enough to be a brick wall limiter. You could use it as a mastering compressor, just to ride the overall volume, but it is not meant to be a brick wall limiter.

I may still use ad limiter plug in at the end. But I wanted to try to run it through this first. I messed with one of my own compressors a few weeks ago and had fun with it which is what made me want to mess with this one. Although I have never messed with an outboard on mastering the track, only on a single instrument.

There is nothing wrong with running the mix through it, but it is not the tool to get the final volume with, that is what the AD limiter is designed for.

It could be a placebo affect. But it seems like it sounds different. Rather it sounds much different or not, I really just want to understand the principles even if I went with a plug in in the end.

That is a decent compressor, but if I'm not mistaken, it's mono. You would have to run the left and right channel through it in separate passes. The problem with that is, if there is more energy on one side or the other, the resulting mix will get swimmy when you put it back together. You really need a stereo compressor to do this.

 

[Farview]

How does the ad limiter set to infinity without squashing?

Because it is very, very fast. The reason other compressors squash and pump is because they can't react fast enough to just get rid of the offending peaks, while leaving the rest of the audio alone.

What happens with a normal compressor is: the peak happens, 1ms later the compressor turns down, 40 ms later the compressor rebounds. The problem is, the peak was only a fraction of a millisecond long, so the compressor let it by and THEN turned the audio down (too late) and didn't return to normal for a long time (relatively). This is what the squish effect comes from.

 

[mesaboogie5050]

No it does not have a ratio on it, but it does have a ratio as far as if it's a limiter or not, which is why I asked. It has a switch to go from limiter or compressor. I do not have the instruction manual to see what the ratio is but I imagine limiter is infinity.

I do also have a stereo compressor, I have quite a few things sitting here.

Although, the way I have it hooked up, it running both L and R into it as an insert and I am getting both L and R back. Although it could be converting it into mono signal which I did not think of, even though I am getting L and R back.

I have not used it on a master track yet, only on vocals and noticed the different sound. I also have here a compressor RNC which is also not mine. I have the art vla II which is stereo.

So, I really need to use the ad limit plug in as a brick wall? Is that my only option? Would using this as a compressor first color the sound, the way it colors the vocals? That is what I was attempting to do. To get the entire track to have that coloration.

If I set it to limiter setting, it's not fast enough? How do I know when an outboard is gonna be fast enough?

---------- Update ----------

So if I use ad limit, how do I know how fast to turn the "lookahead" control?

 

[Farview]

Okay, I am seeing the difference in that and a brick wall limiter. Lets say I use ad limiter as brick wall limiter. How do I go about not squashing it? If the ratio is at infinity, if I just allow say, 3 or 4db of gain reduction, but I use the output on it to turn the track up loud so I can get it up to 0db, what happens there?

That limiter is kind of strange because it has the input scaling, which does change the dynamic range as you turn it up or down. Leave that set at zero.

The output control is before the limiter on that plugin (again, strange way to do it). So, you just turn it up until you can hear the mix fall apart and back it off a bit. It's really that simple. The thing that you want it to do is simply clip off the quick peaks and leave the main bulk of the music alone.

Set the ceiling at -0.1db.

So, in using a limiter to make it louder, not really to compress dynamics what does one need to do? Only let it compress about 3db? And crank the output?

With this one, you crank the output, which feeds more signal into the limiter.

Most mastering limiters work slightly differently. With those, you set the ceiling, then set the threshold. As you bring down the threshold, the limiter automatically raises the output, pushing it into the limiter.

You can get away with a lot of reduction, as long is it is only acting on short transients.

 

[mesaboogie5050]

I was wondering about the input scaling knob. What exactly is going on there? If I need to turn that up as well it will change or compress my dynamics?

I am running into some low wave forms when recording acoustic guitar. I have a lot of soft parts in the songs. So the wave form is almost not there. I don't want to normalize it, as that brings up the noise floor and I can hear virtually everything in my house, because I am recording at -12 because it's a soft part. Usually I'm at -18. Wave form is really low. I compress and I bring the gain up sometimes a little more than -12.

When doing the mix down, and my own master, which is not a master I would actually use, just a master for my own listening reasons, I run into this problem where it's hard to get the acoustic guitar loud enough without hearing too much noise.

Vocals, unless extremely soft, are not a problem. Electric guitar of course isn't a problem.

 

[miroslav]

Would using this as a compressor first color the sound, the way it colors the vocals? That is what I was attempting to do. To get the entire track to have that coloration.

What kind of coloration...?

 

[Farview]

I was wondering about the input scaling knob. What exactly is going on there? If I need to turn that up as well it will change or compress my dynamics?

The website is very vague on what it actually does. From their description, it seemed if you turn it up it's an expander and if you turn it down it's a compressor of sorts. It changes the dynamic range.

I am running into some low wave forms when recording acoustic guitar. I have a lot of soft parts in the songs. So the wave form is almost not there. I don't want to normalize it, as that brings up the noise floor and I can hear virtually everything in my house, because I am recording at -12 because it's a soft part. Usually I'm at -18. Wave form is really low. I compress and I bring the gain up sometimes a little more than -12.

When doing the mix down, and my own master, which is not a master I would actually use, just a master for my own listening reasons, I run into this problem where it's hard to get the acoustic guitar loud enough without hearing too much noise. [/quote]That is a recording problem, not a mastering one. You have to capture a good signal in the first place, compression will only make that worse.

You need to get the mics as close to the guitar as practical and/or get some better isolation. Another problem people run into is some acoustic guitars are much quieter than others. If you have a quiet guitar and a light touch and a noisy environment, your are just screwed from the get-go. You are really going to have to find a solution to that. Play louder, have the mics closer, shut the door on the room, build a tent out of heavy blankets and play in there, etc...

It isn't even a recording level problem, it's just the fact that you are recording a quiet instrument in a noisy environment.

 

[Massive Master]

I've used LA-2A's in the chain -- But only as a parallel (and mono) unit. Squashed to pieces and barely mixed in under the original (and stereo) mix.

That said -- Otherwise, the flavor - the "purpose" of the LA2A is really as a vocal unit (not that you can't put other things into it - don't get me wrong here). It's awesome, it's unique, it's fantastic, etc. But it's probably not something I'd want to drive a mix through. If you have a pair or a stereo unit or what not and you really feel the need to run it through, I'd probably be looking for a dB or less of gain reduction and (as mentioned before) definitely not for use as a limiter. It's not made for it, it won't work well for it, etc.

THAT said -- If that's what you want........

 

[mesaboogie5050]

Yes, I know this compressor is a vocal unit. This is not the same model you speak of. This one is hooked onto a mic pre we use. So it is a compressor specifically for vocals. Although, I was using it as outboard, for acoustic guitar and vocals.

My acoustic is fairly loud, I realize it's not a mastering issue. But I'm speaking of bringing up overall volume of the whole track, in which it does become a mastering issue. A lot of times I just zoom in on the wave form, as I can get the acoustic to be pretty loud, but it will still have a very small wave form. I just zoom in and then lock the screenshot so it stays that way. It isn't a noisy environment but it picks up the room.

My mic are fairly quiet though. But sometimes I am importing into Logic, a file that I recorded away from home. I was using the Zoom h4n, to turn the mic gain where it needs to be, that thing has a crazy amount of noise floor. I now switched to the Zoom iXY which connects to my iPhone and iPad, it is much quieter and the quality sounds a lot better than the mic's on the zoom h4n.

But I don't compress or do anything like that on the Rode Rec app. I send it into my DAW. If I recorded it mobile like that, then it's just a demo for me and someone in the band to hear only.

When doing a real recording, I use in stereo the Rode NT-1A and NT-1000.

Although I did some A/B test the other day, and my Blue Yeti Pro with it's built in pre amp, sounded better than my Rode mics going through my tube pre amp. At least for acoustic guitar. I was shocked and did not expect that. It's not a huge difference, but it's enough that you can tell a difference. The Rode iXY when I'm not at home sounds about as good as the Blue Yeti.

I really like the XY pattern on the acoustic guitar that the iXY gives, the Blue Yeti also gives that when in stereo mode. With the Rodes I do record close to the mic, but not close enough to blow it out with low end. I keep a mic by the 12th fret and one on the sound hole.

I tune a half step down on acoustic, I am using a Taylor 214CE. It has a ton of low end, but I'm still closer to the mic than most people are. Especially on soft parts.

I've noticed other people online, from searching for it, also get the small waveform thing and just zoom in.

I could make it louder before mastering, by simply turning it up on the compressor, but I don't want to do that too much or it starts sounding distorted. I do it as much as possible, and then I put vocals and acoustic together in one track and do a "master" which is just simply a master for me. It's just to get the volume louder, and usually the acoustic is the main thing I need louder.

I've started to use automation as well, when an acoustic riff is soft and then goes into a heavier part. Before today, I was only using compression, it made the volume even, but I had to use so much to do that, that it compressed it too much. So today I have been doing automation with Logic Pro X.

 

[Farview]

Why don't you post something. It would make it a lot easier to tell what's going on.

Use the zoom control if you need to see the waveform bigger. If you actually want it louder turn it up with a gain plugin, not a compressor. I don't know logic, but cubase must have half a dozen different ways to do that.

When you record something like acoustic guitar, you can safely have the peaks hitting -4dbfs without any problem. Acoustic guitars are really transient heavy, so the peak level can be recorded higher without problem.

The reason you want the meat of the signal around -18 or so is because that is line level, which is where the preamps and all the outboard gear works the best. If you take a signal without a lot of transients and try to record it at -4dbfs, it will likely sound a little edgy because distortion is starting to set in. With acoustic guitar, the transients will clip the converters long before the meat of the signal can stress out the preamp. This goes for all transient heavy instruments, especially drums and percussion.

 

[mesaboogie5050]

Well, I kinda got off topic with that, because I explained what I was trying to do in more detail. In another post, I did post what was going on. Here is a photo, notice the volume levels to the left, it's at the correct volume, but you can see how small the waves end up being.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I think the OP has his cart before his horse. He should spend a year learning more about compressors, levels and mastering before getting too into using outboard gear during the mixing and mastering stages.

 

[Farview]

There is a zoom control to make the picture of the waveform bigger, so you can see it better. Just to the right of where it says "no overlap", there is a button. Click on that and move the mouse up or down to make the waveform bigger. Obviously, you need to select the audio you wish to do this to.

It will not change the volume of anything, the the graphical representation of the audio.