Track Level Vs. Mix Level & it's affect on headroom!

bluwater

New member
Alrighty.

I've done lots of investigating, reading, and recording lately and i've stumbled upon a concern.

My band is tracking a cd @ 24bit/44.1kHz. We're doing it ourselves and learning A LOT in the process. I've been enjoying it so far...but a couple things are bugging me now that we're nearing end game in the tracking portion.

We've so far tracked drums, bass guitar, acoustic guitar, and electric guitar.

The good news is, the acoustic, drums, bass, clean guitar, and some dirty guitar were all tracked where each track's RMS is probably around -9 to -12dbFS. We're probably peaking these individual tracks, depending on the track, around -3 to -6dbFS.

The bad news is we tracked most of the dirty guitar parts really hot. I don't know why...(inexperience)...but regardless, we did. The worst of these tracks have RMS of probably -3 to -4dbFS at times...probably peaking near -1 to -3dbFS. Now...my guitarist is very pleased with the sound of these tracks. I have alterior concerns...and they lie in our soon to be mixing process. Before we tracked him, I didn't see us needing to compress his electric gutiar work and he's very pleased with the tone/eq of his guitar rig, so I don't anticipate any real mix-down processing, save for level adjustments.

I've been reading a lot by John Scrip from massivemastering and I've become concerned with the possibility we've inadvertantly shot ourselves in the foot by recording these guitar parts hot. Now, they aren't clipping, but as I understand, we've probably introduced noise & reduced clarity by turing up the gain pots on the pre-amp.

My concern lies in the available headroom I'm intending to have on my mixes to be sent for mastering. My goal is to be having peaks around -6dbFS as so far, most of my recording is going to allow me to do so. To achieve this, I'll obviously be turning our dirty guitar WAY down in the mix.

So, my real question is this:

If most of my tracks have a built in headroom since I tracked them properly and I plan on having the overall headroom of at least 6db in the final mix before mastering, will not having the headroom in the guitar tracks have an adverse affect in the headroom of the total mixed stereo image? Furthermore, if these tracks do sit nicely in the mix, even though we must turn them down, should I concern myself with the woulda/coulda/shoulda?

note: we're not on a schedule, so the end result may be us having to re-track these louder guitar parts (i'd say about 5 hours of tracking)...i'm okay with this if necessary.

thanks for all the great information you guys have and have had at my disposal!

- j
 
This all depends on whether your app is fixed or floating point, how it handles internal precision, and what bit depth your plugin or hardware I/O has compared to the app's internals
 
This all depends on whether your app is fixed or floating point, how it handles internal precision, and what bit depth your plugin or hardware I/O has compared to the app's internals

I should have included the needed info:
I'm running Cubase SX3 combined with the Firepod, tracking with 24bit@ 44.1kHz, all plug-in's we'd be using are 24bit compatible. We'll also be running 24bit wavs to mastering, although we're not intending to do it ourselves...It's an artform that I don't want to attempt to get involved with at this point.

- j
 
Last edited:
you should be ok. Not too sure about 24 bit I/O plugins. Those would cause you to dither on the way in, but high levels there might actually help. I think most of the included plugs for that app will take 32 bit, but I cant remember
 
If you're not on a timetable then you can try to whip out a couple more tracks printed at lower levels to compare against what you have. If the audio sounds better, you have your answer. What you're working against here is a summing issue as well as extra gain coming from the recording chain. Then at least you can make your own judgements about whether or not that extra gain adds something or subtracts something.

At the end of the day, I would use the best performance. Only you can decide that.


sl
 
That's why each channel has a volume slider. Just turn down the guitars and get on with your life. A little preamp noise on electric guitar isn't a big deal. It's probably less then the amp noise.
 
Don't worry about it and mix to make it sound the best you can. Turning down the fader of a track is NOT going to produce enough of a fidelity difference in that track where you will notice it (nor supposed "golden ear" types...you know...mastering engineers...:rolleyes: ).
 
the only big issue Id be worried about is just how messed up a signal youd be getting if a distorted guitar track was really all that loud on a firepod. Im betting the RME isnt really around -4, if it is, its probably pretty messed up. Turning down the track faders wouldnt help that.
 
the only big issue Id be worried about is just how messed up a signal youd be getting if a distorted guitar track was really all that loud on a firepod. Im betting the RME isnt really around -4, if it is, its probably pretty messed up. Turning down the track faders wouldnt help that.

He stated that the tracks sound good to everybody. He is worried that turning down the faders is going to somehow make them sound worse.
 
For so many years, the whole approach of:

If it sounds good, it is good!

has worked great in audio. Don't let the ramblings of the idle stop you guys from keeping on with production.

You CAN overthink it far too much. Trust me, I have to sometimes take LONG breaks from production work (a year or more) to gain perspective again, and to get back to just trusting what I hear and not over thinking everything.
 
I think the overthinking thing is more popular in digital recording than analog. Not to say that it doesn't happen in analog, but there's so much about digital recording that the average musician isn't familiar with, like "What's actually happening when I turn down the fader, or add an effect, etc." which causes a lot of people to wonder what the software is doing to their sound.

I know a lot about computers, software and how digital audio works but I won't claim to be an expert about all the math and theories involved, so I also often wonder sometimes what's actually happening.

Sometimes I think of just dropping the whole digital system and getting a simple 4 track tape recorder. Then all you need to do is hit record and not have to worry about anything. :D
 
then yeah, I wouldnt worry about it

I appreciate the input!

After looking some more at my sequencer, its apparent that a couple of tracks are suffering from how hot we recorded them. It's not readily apparent when the levels are so low that it mixes with the rest of the stuff I have...but if I've learned anything, it's that this is EXACTLY what I should be careful of before we do get to mastering. I'm sure any preamp distortion won't exactly make our finished product sound any better.

I'll be using the good advice above...we've decided that one smaller track without a doubt needs to get re-tracked. So once we do this, i'll get him to record a couple of passages of something else and we'll do a comparison to see to what extent, if at all we re-track.

So...I can understand and appreciate the whole "if it sounds good, don't overthink it" cause i wish i could live my life like that...oh how wonderful it would be....but honestly, there's a lot of opinions out there and i'm too green to sort it all out.

I'm thinking that if I can get a better sound, why not spend the extra effort figuring it out...right?
 

YES! I've read through that entire thread! It's a good read.

After reading I was especially happy that i've been tracking everything on average between -12dbFS to -18dbFS. The guys in my band were like "this stuff is too quiet, its gonna be to quiet". Which is why i think my guitarist had me keep him right under 0dbFS. I didn't know enough at the time to say NO, and also...at the time my thought process was...well, we'll turn it down and compress the other stuff up.

We took the extra step investing some decent money in the setup and mics and time...so now my job will be to get him to see the light...not that there's any great resistance there....but I guess I didn't see the "LOUDNESS War's" effects until this recording process. We're tracking vocals next and you can bet anything their gonna be on par with the acoustic/bass/drum tracks. I think we'll end up re-tracking him...it seems to be a no-fuss way of assuring we wont destroy our seemingly decent sonic mix we have going on!
 
I appreciate the input!

After looking some more at my sequencer, its apparent that a couple of tracks are suffering from how hot we recorded them. It's not readily apparent when the levels are so low that it mixes with the rest of the stuff I have...but if I've learned anything, it's that this is EXACTLY what I should be careful of before we do get to mastering. I'm sure any preamp distortion won't exactly make our finished product sound any better.

I'll be using the good advice above...we've decided that one smaller track without a doubt needs to get re-tracked. So once we do this, i'll get him to record a couple of passages of something else and we'll do a comparison to see to what extent, if at all we re-track.

So...I can understand and appreciate the whole "if it sounds good, don't overthink it" cause i wish i could live my life like that...oh how wonderful it would be....but honestly, there's a lot of opinions out there and i'm too green to sort it all out.

I'm thinking that if I can get a better sound, why not spend the extra effort figuring it out...right?

Hmmmmmm...There you go again, over thinking it all.

Listen. I have been doing production work for a LONG time. Don't look at my join date of THIS username, I have been at the site almost from day 1. I have given out a fair share of pretty good advice! ;)

Here is a partial catalog of my work, almost all of it stuff I have engineered in one capacity of another. http://www.phoenixlightandsound.com/Audio/

I am telling you this. If it sounds right to you, it IS right! Don't get all hung up on whether you tracked at -.3898548u6t945039krusiore9wu or at -121393939. If it sounds right, it IS right.

Tell me, this is a live recording. I only spent about 30 minutes mixing it. Literally, I used presets from another drum kit on this drum kit! How does that snare drum in particular sound?

 
The good news is, the acoustic, drums, bass, clean guitar, and some dirty guitar were all tracked where each track's RMS is probably around -9 to -12dbFS. We're probably peaking these individual tracks, depending on the track, around -3 to -6dbFS.
Do you have limiters or compressors on them? Those figures don't seem really dynamic.
The bad news is we tracked most of the dirty guitar parts really hot. I don't know why...(inexperience)...but regardless, we did. The worst of these tracks have RMS of probably -3 to -4dbFS at times
what times? Usually RMS is measured over the entire track. If this is not the case, you should state the time window which is measured (for instance, VU meters usually do 300 ms)
my guitarist is very pleased with the sound of these tracks.
If it's a distorted guitar, this actually can work. I wouldn't track that hot on purpose, though, because if it doesn't work, you have a problem.
My concern lies in the available headroom I'm intending to have on my mixes to be sent for mastering.
So what's the problem? Just turn the sliders down during mixing. The mixing level really isn't related to the track levels.
After reading I was especially happy that i've been tracking everything on average between -12dbFS to -18dbFS. The guys in my band were like "this stuff is too quiet, its gonna be to quiet".
That's why there is a volume knob on the amp. Don't mess with the tracking because of this.
 
Do you have limiters or compressors on them? Those figures don't seem really dynamic.
No, i guess i should clarify. Each individual track i've tracked so far is at its appropriate dynamic level. i know i'm throwing averages around like crazy...but each track's RMS, without any sort of compression, is falling in line with notion that tracking should be taking place in the equivalent "0dbVU" portion of my dbFS meters...somewhere closer to -18dbFS.

what times? Usually RMS is measured over the entire track. If this is not the case, you should state the time window which is measured (for instance, VU meters usually do 300 ms)
Yes, this is over the entire track. These tracks literaly stay at or around -3dbFS and -4dbFS through his entire track. (Now...one could say...hey...your clean parts were tracked with the same gain on the pre-amp and you're not worried about them. Well, after thinking about this, i've realized that this person is right...we've probably muddled up both signals from the start.)

That's why there is a volume knob on the amp. Don't mess with the tracking because of this.
I whole-heartedly agree. We made an oops.

Thanks for the input!
 
Last edited:
Tell me, this is a live recording. I only spent about 30 minutes mixing it. Literally, I used presets from another drum kit on this drum kit! How does that snare drum in particular sound?

Is this quiz the inexperienced day?:D
I think the snare sounds good...its fairly even and sits in the mix decently. The toms in the beginning are suffering from some distortion in the reverb.

I appreciate the advice, and I'll be taking it. What's it take like 20 mins to set up his rig again to test out a couple of passages and compare them?
 
The toms in the beginning are suffering from some distortion in the reverb.
Did you apply the reverb during recording? You best restrict your effects to those the musicians have to operate while playing, during recording. All other effects are best added during mixing, since you can easily revert anything that doesn't work out as expected that way.
 
Back
Top