Tinkering with mixes (and the solution to it?)

Nola

Nola

Well-known member
Does anyone have suggestions on how to just accept a mix, even if it's flawed?
I can't stop tinkering with mixes. If I lower x, y suddenly sounds off, and I'm just chasing my tail. It's literally taking days from doing other things like practicing/recording new songs. I hate it. Hate mixing. If I were rich I'd hire a mix engineer instead of a butler!

I've tried things like stepping away and coming back to it, and that works to a degree, but then if I spend just a bit of time on it I'm back down the rabbit hole of "this is 1db loud, this is just a hair too far left, etc" and it's maddening.

I can't afford to send mixes to pros and really just want to know if this is common, if others deal with this and relate, and if so how they handle it?
 
I'm like that with performances (guitar), I'm often thinking later I could polish up this or that.

As far as mixes, if it sounds good on headphones, monitors, ear buds, the living room stereo, and in the car - it's done! Glaring issues usually present themselves somewhere along that path, if not then it's done.
 
I mean, this really is one of the biggest problems we have when we are working on our own stuff on our own time and more or less for our own listening. Without the constraints of time and $$$ that come from working for others in a more pro setting, we really can just keep tweaking for ever. There's a very old saying that no mix is ever done, just abandoned. This is a pretty common topic on boards like this, and if there was one good answer... :)

I personally try to commit soon and often, and I try to hold myself to some sort of deadline or time limit almost like it actually was a more formal "professional" situation. Knock it down and move on. Easier said than done of course, but it can help. I also try to keep in mind that when you're changing things by a db or less, you're really just splitting hairs and nobody in the world will really care but you. I also tend to let the mix bus "glue compressor" smooth out some of those little nit picky things.
 
ashcat_lt said:
I mean, this really is one of the biggest problems we have when we are working on our own stuff on our own time and more or less for our own listening. Without the constraints of time and $$$ that come from working for others in a more pro setting, we really can just keep tweaking for ever. There's a very old saying that no mix is ever done, just abandoned. This is a pretty common topic on boards like this, and if there was one good answer... :)

I personally try to commit soon and often, and I try to hold myself to some sort of deadline or time limit almost like it actually was a more formal "professional" situation. Knock it down and move on. Easier said than done of course, but it can help. I also try to keep in mind that when you're changing things by a db or less, you're really just splitting hairs and nobody in the world will really care but you. I also tend to let the mix bus "glue compressor" smooth out some of those little nit picky things.
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Great advice, thanks man. Never heard the line that a mix is never done just abandoned. That is poignant and might hit home so I just ditch some of these mixes I've been working on for way too long. I've never used glue compression on the mix buss. For some reason I'm afraid to try that...do you put it on before you start mixing? What compressor is good for that job and like what settings in terms of attack? I might try it in the future.

Is there any difference between doing a little compression on the mix bus or doing that later during the mastering phase?
 
Yeah hard thing to throw away a good song when you think you've had a bad mix! That's how it seems anyway, but no mix is ever as bad as it seems I think.

I second ashcat, take what you've got and put it away after a decent effort. Better to start something new and move on I think. Imagine all the live recordings and how different they are from the album versions. But few people notice really, the song just shines through.
 
Step away from it - for a few weeks, not just a day or two. When you listen again, you will probably find a few things to change, but not the niggly '1dB this/1dB that' stuff.
 
There are a couple of spirals that you can get trapped in.

The first is the spiral of unattainable perfection . . . this is where you tweak endlessly in the pursuit of some goal that is actually unachievable.

The second is the spiral of endless possibilities . . . this is where you cycle through a variety of options, none of which emerge as 'the' one, and all of which are equally acceptable.

There is also a third: the spiral of compounding problems . . . this is where when you fix one problem you create another, and when you address that, in turn yet another emerges and so on . . . until you've got such a mess that the only way out is to start again.

They say that if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well. That's true enough so long as 'well' doesn't mean 'perfect'. If 'well' means 'fit for purpose', then a reasonable goal and a good point at which to stop.
 
It's certainly not always the case, but usually when I find myself relentless tinkering it's my mix's way of telling me I did something wrong two steps back.
If I'm constantly tweaking the tone of a guitar, invariably I end up re-recording that guitar and being a lot happier with it straight away.

Whether that says I have a specific sound in mind and I'm a perfectionist, or I ballsed it up the first time.....Well...That's up to you. ;)

A long time ago I'd have said mixing is like a house of cards, as you describe, but I realise now it isn't...or shouldn't be.
You should be able to adjust whatever track it is within a certain range without knocking ten other things out of whack.

Obviously some things are going to be in delicate balance. I just mean the whole mix shouldn't be super delicate, that way.

All that to say I've learned that if I have to tinker that much, tinkering probably won't fix the problem.
 
I agree with everything everybody else has said also. Especially what gecko and steen said. It really helps to have a clear vision of where you're trying to get to before you start mixing - and preferably before you start tracking. If you don't know where you're going, then you won't know when you get there. Like that whole "I don't know, where do you want to go for dinner?" "I don't know, what do you feel like eating?" "I don't know..." If somebody would just pick a damn restaurant, we could be eating by now!

My "glue compressor" nowadays is always ReaComp with pre-comp set to 250ms, RMS set to 500ms, Attack and Release at 0, and an extremely low ratio - usually just 1.1. I strap it on at some point later in the mix. I guess usually around the time I'm making 1/4db adjustments and second-guessing the whole process. Usually if it's going on an album with other pieces, I won't actually render that compression until the mastering stage. It's not at all the way other people do it (except people who took the tip from me :) ), but it works for me. I don't fully understand the way other people use compression, though, so...
 
Only tweak if there is a problem, if the mix sounds good on several systems then that's it, done, move on.

I have the same problem in my studio with clients that what to keep revisiting a song / mix. This is a big problem when I have mixed in the analog domain, through the console, the rack gear, etc. I have automation and I keep digital photos of al the rack settings and the patching, however it takes me close to and hour to get it set up each time. If I now a problem client is coming along I mix in the box. I sometimes revisit songs and mixes for months, even years, and there is nothing wrong with it, the client listens so intensely to everything, usually on headphones, and I get comments like "after the second chorus there is a noise", which is usually a guitar pick sound or something just as natural, or "the 3rd word of the 3rd verse needs to be louder", What the heck!

Anyway I get paid to do this stuff. By the way with my own projects with my various bands, I usually stay away from the recordings after they are finished, sometimes for moths, then I listen and don't remember anything about it and it sounds fine.

My advice Move On and record some more music before it gets stale.

Alan.
 
witzendoz said:
Anyway I get paid to do this stuff.
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Thankfully, the folks who actually pay me for this can't afford to have me do that. :)
By the way with my own projects with my various bands, I usually stay away from the recordings after they are finished, sometimes for moths, then I listen and don't remember anything about it and it sounds fine.
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But that!!!

I almost always end up at a point where I'm all like "This fucking sucks! I hate it! Can't listen to it anymore!" and frankly that's usually the point when it's done. I might walk away for a day and come back and it's actually just done. I hand it to the client and they go "Holy shit!" or I put it on Bandcamp and then I don't listen to it for months. Then I go back and go "Damn I'm good!" :P

Maybe like, if you find yourself looking for things to fix, you're probably done?
 
ashcat_lt said:
Thankfully, the folks who actually pay me for this can't afford to have me do that. :)

But that!!!

I almost always end up at a point where I'm all like "This fucking sucks! I hate it! Can't listen to it anymore!" and frankly that's usually the point when it's done. I might walk away for a day and come back and it's actually just done. I hand it to the client and they go "Holy shit!" or I put it on Bandcamp and then I don't listen to it for months. Then I go back and go "Damn I'm good!" :P
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By the time I am finished with it I am way too close to it, I let others listen now and monitor the feedback, do the public like it, that's the main thing. If I stay away for a while I can enjoy it in a fresh way.

Also I listen to a lot of music each week, my Radio Show, my live mixing gigs, my band gigs, the other band gigs I get hired for, etc etc, this is before I get into the studio stuff LOL. So I don't always get time to listen to my own stuff. The radio show is interesting as I get to play my bands albums up against other albums on air, this is a big way to compare your mixes.

Alan.
 
Step away from it for a while is my advice. Once you're in the ballpark, keep your adjustments small. 1dB either way on the bass is a big move for me. Personally, I don't spend load of time on mixing. I develop a working mix while I'm still tracking, and tend to stay close to that right through to the end.
 
Lots of good advice.
I'll add this, and it's very important,;

Don't make yourself insane.

One can get to the point where it's just not fun anymore. Don't go there.

We are our worst critics unless we're just arrogant egotistical fucks. Thankfully most aren't that way.

Places like the clinic can be good for other ears and advice from people who are peers. We are all peers, but of varying degrees of proficiency.

Still, we are peers in that we all construct music,
But take the advice of your peers with a grain of salt.

You know who the true judge of your song is?

A civilian, just a good old fashioned music listener. Preferably one who hasn't heard the tune.

Your wife or girlfriend isn't any good because she's heard it as much as you and is probably sick of it. :D

But get it as good as you can, have it "peer reveiwed", check it on different systems, and then have a normal person listen to it.
Chances are they won't hear what you perceive as flaws, and will just like the song or not.

After all, gear, instruments, and mixes are just the vehicle to get across a song.
:D
 
RFR said:
Your wife or girlfriend isn't any good because she's heard it as much as you and is probably sick of it. :D
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Either that, or they tell lies.

They either adore you and worship every note that springs from your lips, whether tuneful or otherwise, and tell you that it's awesome.

Or they think it sucks and don't want to hurt your feelings, so they tell you it's awesome.

Friends and relatives tend to be like that. With luck you can get some honest ones amongst them.
 
This IS all good advice.

One thing I do, and I usually insits that people I am working with do-
I say carry around a notebook.. and writ down PRECISELY what you would change and where. With timecode, and words describing the change.
Why? If I can't put it down in writing- it might be too subtle.

Another trick- put it in a matched-genre playlist and listen while you are doing something else... see if it jumps out as shitty. Or awesome.

Thats what I do when I can't leave it alone for a month.
 
jimmys69 said:
It's done when there is no more to do...
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How did you get into my house!? Stalker!

...jk, wish I had that mixing board. Prob better than my laptop.

hmmm, I should prob chime in on the OP. I haven't changed the way I approach it in the 2 years since I started. I can't find myself giving more than a day break, mostly because I just want to move on from the song already and work on something else, but longer breaks are certainly better if possible. Like Robus, I build the mix as I track, and usually only make small adjustments by the time all the pieces are recorded. Then, I'll spend a week or two straight on just mixing, bouncing, checking other systems, rest, mixing, bouncing, checking systems, sharing with friends, repeat....until I simply can't stand the tune anymore and I'm afraid that I've lost all perspective on it. Hopefully, by that time, I've gotten it to a decent enough point. Unless it's outright obvious that there's an issue, I call it a day (week). Everyone has preferences, so, again, unless it's very clear something is way off, it's probably good enough to be titled a learning experience; to just move on and make mental notes for changes in the next song.

So, when do I think it's time to move on? I guess when the adjustments are so small that I'm almost fishing for them, and that they are beyond personal preference or impossibilities. Just my own approach
 
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I've been through everything everyone has mentioned here so far. This may sound weird but what has really helped me is.................when I think I'm done mixing.......and I do this as soon as possible......I put the mix into a group with all of my favorite final mixes of my own previous stuff.........and listen to it a few times in a group. I change the play order around sometimes.

That allows me to see if anything in the new mix really sticks out. If I was happy with the older mixes........then anything different about the new mix might get my attention. I've found that's a good way to cure the........."listening to this track until I hate it"............thing. It also helps me in the mastering process. I can hear it as part of a collection and keep the group sound congruent with each track. Sometimes it helps me to realize.......hey that was a good mix and a good tune.....etc....etc.........and that I have nothing to fix. But all in all.......comparing it to my previous songs as soon as possible keeps me on track and tells me quite a bit.

Once I've done that........I try not to go back to that song for a couple weeks at least.
 
A lot of great thoughts, thanks guys.

So say you're releasing (digitally to like bandcamp or one of those sites), and later down the road you decide you can improve a mix. Is it ethical (to anyone who purchased your album ...yeah right!) to take down mixes and fiddle with them if you decide you can improve them later on?
 
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