Is there any use for testing mixes on speakers anymore?

YellowDwarf

YellowDwarf

Dismember
I'm a commuter and a hobbyist.

Dumb question, (/edit and maybe it's a bit tongue in cheek), but it seems to me that hardly anyone listens to music anymore on anything besides some form of cover-your-ear headphones or stick-in-your ear earbuds or something in between. In all my education on sound production, I've been advised to test mixes on a variety of devices, (/edit including car stereos and the like).

Problem is that all I see are young folks on the train/subway listening (/edit: to crappy music) on the aforementioned listening devices. Even I don't have a stereo on the main floor of my home anymore, only (/edit my wife's) god awful bose thingamajig that makes everything too base-y.

:) When posting mixes, I've had comments that pertained directly and only to how it sounds great on everything else besides a $3 pair of earbuds. :cool:

So, I'll ask the folks who still participate here my title question: Is there any use for testing mixes on speakers anymore?

Timbo
 
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Not sure what you mean by "testing"...like, are you saying mix on studio monitors like you normally would and then test only on earbuds...or are you saying mix on earbuds instead of monitors....?

If you want to just test on earbuds,OK, but if you are testing, why make the assumption that no one listens on car speakers or home stereo speakers.
It's pretty normal on a subway or bus to see everyone wearing earphones or earbuds...but I don't think that means no one is using anything but them.

For mixing...studio monitors are still the best option. AFA testing...if you really want to test, the more playback systems the better...
...or do the total opposite, get the right studio monitors and dial them in...and then don't waste your time testing on anything else.
IOW...once you know that your studio monitors are telling you the truth, and the mixes are translating well and as expected...there's not much point on constantly testing on other systems. I think when people keep doing that, it just means they still don't trust their studio monitors...so that's what has to be sorted out, rather than testing endlessly and then trying to guesstimate from that what to do with your mix.
 
[MENTION=94267]miroslav[/MENTION] is speaking (writing) the truth.

Now, there's a fair amount of work in getting the room and speakers and your ears to a point where you can say "it sounds good here, so it's going to sound good everywhere" and then just spot-check perhaps, but I would say it's really hard to get to the same place with headphone mixing. In fact, I never could get there, and would go round and round until it all got Ok. I save a lot of time mixing on speakers.

Of course, some people do mix with headphones, and a really good set of headphones is certainly an option if you can't get a good room and monitors set up, but you'll have to test much more if you care about translatability. There are physical interactions that happen when soundwaves mix in a [open] space that simply cannot happen when the speakers are isolated and separated by your head, e.g., some problems, like phase issues between left and right, would not be heard in normal listening with headphones. (Toggling the MASTER from STEREO to MONO is a good practice for headphone mixers!)
 
If you mix really well, your mix will translate onto any playback system as good as it will get. Knowing how your mix translates is the key thing.
 
The majority of people listen on shit systems nowadays. The 70s/ 80s era of a love for HiFi is gone. First came the walkman, then the Ipod, laptop, and now the IPhone and streaming services, all of which sound like shit.
Maybe the average person will listen in their car stereo, or maybe the home theater system (which is tuned for movie explosions) But these two are as high quality of audio as most will ever see.
Sure, there's a small, loyal, hardcore group of people that still apreciate high quality audio, but for most the above mentioned and a laptop is as good as it gets.

It's my personal opinion, and only opinion, that mastering engineers will master differently for something destined for Spotify so that it does sound good in earbuds.

I don't fully understand all of it, but I've noticed my own mixes will sound too top endy on a set of buds or laptop speakers. But the same mix will sound good everywhere else. Even in some known engineer/producer's studios.

So to close out, I believe one should go for the absolute best they can do, but also check on shit systems.
After all, shit systems are a way of life today.

This doesn't however mean ditch the monitors, nor should "everyone listens on earbuds anyway" be used as an excuse to not get it sounding excellent.
:D
 
RFR said:
The majority of people listen on shit systems nowadays. The 70s/ 80s era of a love for HiFi is gone. First came the walkman, then the Ipod, laptop, and now the IPhone and streaming services, all of which sound like shit.
Maybe the average person will listen in their car stereo, or maybe the home theater system (which is tuned for movie explosions) But these two are as high quality of audio as most will ever see.
Sure, there's a small, loyal, hardcore group of people that still apreciate high quality audio, but for most the above mentioned and a laptop is as good as it gets.

It's my personal opinion, and only opinion, that mastering engineers will master differently for something destined for Spotify so that it does sound good in earbuds.

I don't fully understand all of it, but I've noticed my own mixes will sound too top endy on a set of buds or laptop speakers. But the same mix will sound good everywhere else. Even in some known engineer/producer's studios.

So to close out, I believe one should go for the absolute best they can do, but also check on shit systems.
After all, shit systems are a way of life today.

This doesn't however mean ditch the monitors, nor should "everyone listens on earbuds anyway" be used as an excuse to not get it sounding excellent.
:D
Click to expand...

Shit mixes sound even shittier on shit playback devices. Well mixed tunes sound less shitty on everything.

So...
 
keith.rogers said:
[MENTION=94267]miroslav[/MENTION]There are physical interactions that happen when soundwaves mix in a [open] space that simply cannot happen when the speakers are isolated and separated by your head, e.g., some problems, like phase issues between left and right, would not be heard in normal listening with headphones.
Click to expand...

I agree with all you say, but you ignore the OP's premise, that so many (not everybody) people listen on buds or headsets. (That is a fact if you replace everybody with "so many".
The "problems" you mention disappear beacuse those people can't hear those interactions in open space. Their heads are in the way.
The problem
 
Coquet-Shack said:
I agree with all you say, but you ignore the OP's premise, that so many (not everybody) people listen on buds or headsets. (That is a fact if you replace everybody with "so many".
The "problems" you mention disappear beacuse those people can't hear those interactions in open space. Their heads are in the way.
The problem
Click to expand...
Yeah, I guess I leapt to thinking OP was talking about mixing vs testing, and on that I'd say [these days] testing on earbuds and headphones probably is more important than testing on speakers, but only if you include phone speaker(s) and maybe a BT one or two, because I actually do see those being used a fair amount. Sure, when I'm in a train/subway/airplane all I see are earbuds and Bose noise-cancelling phones, but if you go to a club or some place where people actually interact (passé among some I realize), there's still music in the air.

I actually test mostly on 3 sets of headphones and a set of old iPhone earbuds, and at some point probably listen on the cheap soundbar under the TV and in the car, so, statistically, I'm testing more in line with current listening habits. (But, mixing on speakers is far more efficient for me.)
 
for one, I think its a false dream perception of a unobtainable thought that any mix "can sound good anywhere".
"can sound good anywhere" is bs. example : the best Billboard top mix sounds like crap on my laptop speakers in my kitchen of tile and drywall.

so therefore if mixing for the masses today I would lean towards the ear-bud mixes being the most important for the 8yr old to the teens buying public.
if you are just a gearhead HiFi audio-holic then sure some hiend headphones and a headphone DAC amp is audio bliss.

the CD in the automobile is still hanging in there for now isnt it?

neither of my 20+yr old kids ever had any interest in a old fashioned hifi setup with tower speakers of course! they arent audioholics.
 
keith.rogers said:
but if you go to a club or some place where people actually interact (passé among some I realize), there's still music in the air.
Click to expand...

I see maybe 30-40 bands a year live (most gigs have 3 to 4 bands on the bill)..... imo, the sound is 1000 times better than when I played live. These days the huge club pa's and sub and ability to form the sound for the club is done by "pro" sound guys.

I think Live music is just the entertainment part of life that will never change. Like going out to eat, get out of the house, go eat then see a band or a movie, dance or get wasted....
 
I admit to testing on earbuds and with mp3 versions just to make sure everything translates. I also agree that testing in mono is important as so many BT speakers are summed. But I don't believe its time to get rid of speakers yet as even the lowliest of cars has some sort of optimized system as an option, plus I want to be able to listen to it on my own systems!
 
CoolCat said:
for one, I think its a false dream perception of a unobtainable thought that any mix "can sound good anywhere".
"can sound good anywhere" is bs. example : the best Billboard top mix sounds like crap on my laptop speakers in my kitchen of tile and drywall.

so therefore if mixing for the masses today I would lean towards the ear-bud mixes being the most important for the 8yr old to the teens buying public.
if you are just a gearhead HiFi audio-holic then sure some hiend headphones and a headphone DAC amp is audio bliss.

the CD in the automobile is still hanging in there for now isnt it?

neither of my 20+yr old kids ever had any interest in a old fashioned hifi setup with tower speakers of course! they arent audioholics.
Click to expand...

Mercedes Benz no longer sells a vehicle with CD/DVD capable radios except optional movie players for SUVs. I think most car mfg are headed that way, if they aren't already there.
 
interesting, bluetooth from the Smart Phone music library? Radio...

lately Ive pondered the real need for stereo other than effects. there are a lot of well done singles all released in Mono, all the beatles singles were Mono up to the end, and they sound just fine....Sgt Pepper in Mono often hailed as even better than its stereo counterpart.
For this genre of music anyway.

Mono would eliminate a lot of problems in mixing in theory. Translation from system to system problems lessened if using a Mono Mix.

Interesting story was my sons band had one song and it was done in a big studio, the playback was gorgeous in this big studio sound room.
The student mix eng took it home to his house/bedroom studio and mixed it and it sounded like crap when we played it at home...it sounded like crap in the car...it sounded like crap about everywhere except the big studio room. Sadly, we didnt have a version dry-mix take from only the big studio to compare to....so was it a bad mix or was the "mixing student" home-studio room the reason the recording sounded like crap after he was done with it?
We'll never know it seems.
 
I guess satisfy your self first is the best option. If I feel it's the best "mix" then I tend to go with it. I mean there is always going to be something that just needs "a little tweak"- nature of what we are doing. So I guess it's about letting it go (which I find hard) in the end. I think most of us are our own worst critics once we've been doing it long enough to know what things are "supposed" to sound like. I say life's too short , move to the next song.
 
Gtoboy said:
Mercedes Benz no longer sells a vehicle with CD/DVD capable radios except optional movie players for SUVs. I think most car mfg are headed that way, if they aren't already there.
Click to expand...

Yeah, CD players in autos are on the way out, but they're all starting to sync with your other devices to stream whatever your phone could access already.
 
CoolCat said:
interesting, bluetooth from the Smart Phone music library? Radio...

lately Ive pondered the real need for stereo other than effects. there are a lot of well done singles all released in Mono, all the beatles singles were Mono up to the end, and they sound just fine....Sgt Pepper in Mono often hailed as even better than its stereo counterpart.
For this genre of music anyway.

Mono would eliminate a lot of problems in mixing in theory. Translation from system to system problems lessened if using a Mono Mix.

Interesting story was my sons band had one song and it was done in a big studio, the playback was gorgeous in this big studio sound room.
The student mix eng took it home to his house/bedroom studio and mixed it and it sounded like crap when we played it at home...it sounded like crap in the car...it sounded like crap about everywhere except the big studio room. Sadly, we didnt have a version dry-mix take from only the big studio to compare to....so was it a bad mix or was the "mixing student" home-studio room the reason the recording sounded like crap after he was done with it?
We'll never know it seems.
Click to expand...

Well...one can take the "dumb it down" approach, and mix for the lowest common denominator with the assumption that the lowest common playback devices are the main target....and maybe for them, the mixes will be good enough.
However, the most common playback devices have changed over the years...so the mix you made today may sound like shit down the road...if that matters.
Most of the commercial stuff done 30-40-50 years ago, still sounds just as good today on a variety of PB devices (maybe not as loud only)...and those mixes were all done on studio monitoring systems.
Of course...even the best mixes will sound different on a high-end studio system compared to your kitchen radio...but overall, there was sufficient translation that made/makes those mixes work.

If you specifically mix of earbuds...OK...which ones? There are varying levels of earbud quality...so it's not as straightforward as it seems. Mixing on a known system, in a proper room will still yield the best overall results when you test on a variety of playback systems.

Also...I think it's important to maintain the quality level you can get and that you can hear on a decent studio system...and then let the John-Q-Public decide how much they want to dumb that down.
There is recently a slow shift back to what was once called "High Fidelity"...and when the next generation comes across those low grade earbud mixes...they won't sound all that great.

AFA the mono thing... :D....whatever, but the audio recording community for the most part abandoned mono as a target format about 50 years ago.
There is current technology trying to get more of that 3D, surround sound out of stereo devices...and if anything, I would focus more on that than mono, though personally, I just go for the classic stereo mix...and haven't bothered with all the surround stuff, but I am always looking for that 3D quality in the stereo mix.

IMO...it's important to first mix for yourself...rather than make assumptions about what someone or everyone is going to use for playback, and in what environment....because those are just ghosts you will end up chasing.
 
mjbphotos said:
If you mix really well, your mix will translate onto any playback system as good as it will get. Knowing how your mix translates is the key thing.
Click to expand...

Yup, every mix that has sounded good on my monitors has sounded great in the car, earbuds, headphones, etc.
 
miroslav said:
IMO...it's important to first mix for yourself...rather than make assumptions about what someone or everyone is going to use for playback, and in what environment....because those are just ghosts you will end up chasing.
Click to expand...

That's an important point.

If we really want to get down to it, where it needs to sound good in your own environment.
Chances are high that oustide of your own 'loyal fanbase' (freinds and family) the rest of the world won't even hear your stuff. They won't even know that you and your music even exists.

Sure, forums like this exist and you can post in the mp3 clinic. What, maybe 20 people will hear your tune? And they'll just be throwing in their 2 cents on how they would have done it better.

Bottom line, if by chance someone far away from your hometown hears your tune on a mono IPhone speaker, the mix is useless.They won't care about that. Every song on an phone speaker sounds like garbage. They're used to that.
If the song grabs them, only then will you get noticed.

So mix for yourself, your personal sense of accomplishment.

Go for excellence and don't worry about the rest of the world, cause it doesn't care and doesn't even know you exist.
:D
 
Thanks everybody for chiming in!

I'd really like to hear from Farview and MassiveMaster as well to see how they approach this too. I've known these 2 for more than a decade and would like to know their thoughts - although I think I know the answer and it's what most of you have already said: if it don't sound good in the studio, it'll never sound good on cans or buds. I guess I was wanting to know if there was a little extra eq done to make mixes sound just as good on tiny little speakers as it would in a room with loudspeakers.

Timbo
 
YellowDwarf said:
Thanks everybody for chiming in!

I'd really like to hear from Farview and MassiveMaster as well to see how they approach this too. I've known these 2 for more than a decade and would like to know their thoughts - although I think I know the answer and it's what most of you have already said: if it don't sound good in the studio, it'll never sound good on cans or buds. I guess I was wanting to know if there was a little extra eq done to make mixes sound just as good on tiny little speakers as it would in a room with loudspeakers.

Timbo
Click to expand...

I would also like to hear from them. But you are likely going to get similar advice.

I don't think anyone said anything like 'if it don't sound good in the studio, it'll never sound good on cans or buds.' That isn't what I would say anyway.

The point is that if you have a ideal environment to mix in, the results will likely translate better to other sound devices. It just common sense...

In my personal environment I have found with time/treatment/gear, that it has become much easier to get mixes that sound good on any reference type.
 
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