Subtle changes and automation

[BeagleFaceHenry]

Ok folks, I'm in the thick of mixing a session my band recorded a week ago. I'm using Sonar X2.

I've gone through each channel and EQ'd and compressed as I felt necessary and I'm happy with the tone of each instrument. I have a rough mix, but I'm now to the point of wanting to automate the volume levels. I don't have much experience with automation, am I correct in thinking that once I create a volume automation envelope, my faders become essentially useless? I can no longer make subtle volume changes without playing with the automation, right?
I know I can disable the automation, but once it's re-enabled, the volume (and fader) jump back to the automated setting, right? So, disabling doesn't allow me to make changes that will hold true once I re-enable?

So basically, I'm hesitant to start automating, because I'm nervous that I'll create a lot more work for myself. How do y'all handle it? Am I missing something? Is there a way to raise/lower an entire song's worth of automation? If so, do I have to go through and select EVERY node and then adjust the entire envelope? I hope not, because I like to do my final mix with my eyes closed and ride the faders. I feel like using my mouse to grab nodes will distract me from my mission.

Thanks in advance!
-j

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Too bad. Sony Vegas works exactly how you want to work: fader and envelope are independent.

Not sure if this helps but Pro Tools works as you describe Sonar and if you grab the envelope after the last automation point you can move the whole thing as a unit.

 

[mjbphotos]

I don't know Sonar, but suspect you have the volume automation in 'write' mode. Put it in 'read' mode, then adjusting the fader affects the whole track and your pre-done automation nodes all move together.

 

[YanKleber]

I don't have much experience with automation, am I correct in thinking that once I create a volume automation envelope, my faders become essentially useless? I can no longer make subtle volume changes without playing with the automation, right?

I don't know Sonar but I use Reaper and I have this similar issue after to apply the automation, because even if you drag the fader up or down while the music is playing for instances, as soon you release it imediately comes back to the position of the envelope.

The way I found to 'hack' it was to wrap the enveloped track within another track (as it was a bus). So suppose that you have drawed all the envelope for your vocal track. Now just create an empty track above your vocal track and drag the vocal track to under or within the new empty one (I suppose that Sonar allows to create groups or folders, right?). Then now just apply your 'subtles' automation in the new track. So you will have an envelope acting over another envelope. It works fine for me.

 

[BeagleFaceHenry]

Groovy guys, thanks!
Boulder, good tip, I'll check that out.
MJB, I don't believe I can set it 'read'. I can set it to 'record' my fader movement, but that's bit bulky. Every touch of the fader adds several more nodes, and it's like recording a new track, so not very friendly.
Yan, I had that idea too. I was wondering if anyone else did that. You're suggesting automating the track, then sending the output to a bus, and pushing the fader control for the bus? I was about to try that last night, but I didn't really want to create 14 new buses (1 for each track). I'm hoping there's a neater way, but this is my backup plan. I guess I don't really need to create a bus per track, this is probably only necessary on vocals, guitar, etc.

I dig it. Thanks for the input guys!

 

[YanKleber]

Yan, I had that idea too. I was wondering if anyone else did that. You're suggesting automating the track, then sending the output to a bus, and pushing the fader control for the bus? I was about to try that last night, but I didn't really want to create 14 new buses (1 for each track). I'm hoping there's a neater way, but this is my backup plan. I guess I don't really need to create a bus per track, this is probably only necessary on vocals, guitar, etc.

Well, in reaper I don't need to do anything special (and I believe that in Sonar it is not a big deal either). It is just a matter of put the track that you want to control (and that already has its own envelope) within a new track as it was a track group. Similar to what you do with all the drums pieces to create a master to the drums. So basically, what you will be doing is to create a 'master' to your vocal track. Then just add the volume envelope to this master to automate it as needed.

Of course you won't do that for ALL tracks, but only for the ones you need a second level of automation.

I hope it does make sense.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Reaper has an option somewhere to "reset fader..." something so that it is separate from the automation. I'm nowhere near it right now, but it's there. I thought it was the default, but...

 

[gecko zzed]

Reaper has an option somewhere to "reset fader..." something so that it is separate from the automation. I'm nowhere near it right now, but it's there. I thought it was the default, but...

I thought it was the default too, because that's the way it always has been for me in Reaper. So I can create n envelope for volume, with a mountain range of peaks and troughs, and control the whole level separately with the fader.

 

[BroKen_H]

IDK if it's available in sonar, but Reason allows you to use as many busses as you want. Simply assign your vocals to a bus (vocal bus) and apply the automation to the bus. The vocal track remains "tunable".
Do the same for any track you need to tweak and still keep a copy that can be used to tweak the mix overall. You may end up with double the tracks you started with. If you group the busses together at one end of the board, and the mixable tracks on the other, you can easily switch between the two for tweaking automation and tweaking mix. You can also use parallel tracks if Sonar allows to put all your eq, compression, etc. on separate tracks before bussing. Makes stuff sound fuller. Hope this is helpful Happy recording!

 

[mixsit]

Sonar here. Here's a few ways I get around in there.
One there is an Offset Mode ('O key shortcut) that gives a whole alt track view. Volumes, pans sends etc (all but the 'gain fader) have a +' on them. You can add or subtract form the 'normal levels -and whatever automation is on them.
I tend not to use it much -but that's basically because I don't care for stuff being hidden - 'out of sight out of mind, - or non zeroed' and forgotten' (often projects become templates.

But what works fine is the envelope tool, and say you want to adjust a whole or section of track's automation? Just zoom out horizontal, and in vertical- enough to grab all the nodes of interest, and track height to make the up-down mouse drag less sensitive (more accurate) if need be.
That would be exactly the same tac' if ya wanted to tweak a verse' or phrase

 

[ido1957]

If you need to adjust the automation in specific spots you need to move the nodes - no way around it. That's how it works.
If you need to reduce the volume of the ENTIRE track in one fell swoop, then turn down the gain knob at the top of the channel strip.

 

[mjbphotos]

I don't know Sonar but I use Reaper and I have this similar issue after to apply the automation, because even if you drag the fader up or down while the music is playing for instances, as soon you release it imediately comes back to the position of the envelope.

The way I found to 'hack' it was to wrap the enveloped track within another track (as it was a bus). So suppose that you have drawed all the envelope for your vocal track. Now just create an empty track above your vocal track and drag the vocal track to under or within the new empty one (I suppose that Sonar allows to create groups or folders, right?). Then now just apply your 'subtles' automation in the new track. So you will have an envelope acting over another envelope. It works fine for me.

I was doing it all wrong in Reaper until I read the manual. There are 5 modes - when you click on the envelope button for a track, in the box that pops up near the top you will see "automation mode". Trim/Read, Read, Touch, Latch, Write. Trim/Read lets you adjust the overall track volume (or other envelope parameters) with the fader/control.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

If you need to reduce the volume of the ENTIRE track in one fell swoop, then turn down the gain knob at the top of the channel strip.

If it's like most gain controls it will alter the way the signal hits any level dependent processing like compressors or hardware emulations. A well designed DAW would have a simple solution: fader independent of automation. Sony Vegas is the only one I know of that has this.

 

[ido1957]

If it's like most gain controls it will alter the way the signal hits any level dependent processing like compressors or hardware emulations. A well designed DAW would have a simple solution: fader independent of automation. Sony Vegas is the only one I know of that has this.

Yeah - that's the way Sonar works. No way around it.

 

[gecko zzed]

If it's like most gain controls it will alter the way the signal hits any level dependent processing like compressors or hardware emulations. A well designed DAW would have a simple solution: fader independent of automation. Sony Vegas is the only one I know of that has this.

Reaper has it as well.

Vegas and Reaper are very similar in their underpinning design

 

[mixsit]

If it's like most gain controls it will alter the way the signal hits any level dependent processing like compressors or hardware emulations. A well designed DAW would have a simple solution: fader independent of automation. Sony Vegas is the only one I know of that has this.

Yes, in Sonar that's their Offset mode- essentially an alt second layer of control.

Just to add, 99%' of the time I'll do that gain ('clip) automation first (well, before track/fader automation anyway
1) While you're roughing in the mix- this is where I tackle the bigger more obvious moves and leveling early on
2) It leaves the faders free (of automation) for the earlier phase
3) Once the mix is sort of settled in, comes track automation
Now- in dialing in further you have these two layers of automation.. Most (or a lot) of the nodes' and leveling sections are already there. You can now choose (if it makes has any real impact one way or the other..) which to use- pre compressor/insert-- or post.