Stupid Reverb Questions

NL5

Unpossible!
Ok, so i'm still somewhat new to this whole "recording" deal - and while experimentation has been fun, I would like to ask a couple questions about applying reverb -

Lets say you have your average rock band tracked - 8 drum tracks, couple three or four guitar, bass, vocal, and backup vocal tracks.

Do you apply reverb just on the master track? If no (which is probably the case) how, where, what kind of reverbs to you apply. Now, i know there is NOT a one fit answer for everything, but in general how do you apply it?

I have been putting a mono verb on the snare, a Stereo on the OH's, Diff Stereo on the Toms, Diff Stereo on the guitars mixed down to a stereo group, stereo on the main vox (as well as lead doubles) and a seperate stereo verb for the background vox. Is this just making a muddy reverb mess? Or is this somewhat close?

Thanks in advance.
 
It really depends on the sound you're going for. It seems you're using a lot of reverb but if it's ending up with a final sound you like--go for it. I typically just apply reverb to the snare and vocal tracks, leaving everything else dry. But that's just my preference. I definitely think applying reverb to individual tracks rather than the overall mix is the way to go. And in general, just enough so you notice a difference when it's on or off; but it's basically imperceptible when you're listening to it in the overall mix.
 
I'm not a pro but I do know if you apply alot of different reverbs to different tracks the whole thing together prolly wont sound quite right... and maybe thats what you want I dont know. In many cases you want to more or less make things sound as if they were in the same sonic space. Maybe thats not accurate but I read it somewhere in these boards ;)
 
Getting the sound YOU want, is what it's all about. I've tried the trick of putting in reverb on the whole mix at once, and you hear it a lot more, than if you apply it to specific tracks, one at a time. This is not always bad, but too much can really make for some weird sounds. If that's the plan cool, if not, time to start over. I fine that with my vocals, they need different reverb than my drum sounds, which need different tweaking than the guitar, so I have mainly used it one track at a time. I have applied it to the whole mix, to give the sound of a large room, but that was more to screw around with something than to really make it sound the way I thought it should.

Saying that, whatever works for you is the way to go.
Ed
 
"I think it's good to have a basis to start with. Without some guideline, your walking in the dark.

These are some quotes I have gathered from about 3 days of researching the subject on google. These are various articles on the net regarding the use of reverb. They have been very beneficial to me. One is even a quote from this board. The below information will broaden your horizons and can help you add that pro touch to your mixes. Check it out, share that knowledge and enjoy!"


-A good mix has a good sense of depth (front to back) and stereo image (left to right).


Pre-Delay-

The use of pre-delay can add clarity to a instrument
while giving it a depth dimension. Just adding reverb to an
instrument can muddy up the sound. The trick is not to add the
same amount of pre-delay to all the instruments in a mix or
live on stage. You can have only one reverb chamber but if you
delay each instrument differently before you send it to the chamber
each instrument will have more of its own dimension. Having many
different delays and chambers will yield even more clarity.

Why would I want to delay the reverb a bit to hear the instrument
dry for a couple of milliseconds? Clarity is the key word. I can
use the pre-delay to help move the sound in the stereo spectrum
and to help the mix sound clearer and punchier. For example you
can get a tighter mix and also help the text be much clearer using
a long pre-delay on a small voice. This can give it a bigger sound.

Guidelines for use of Pre-delay

Drums and fast percussion 25-50ms
Drums and relaxed percussion 40-80ms
Vocals 75-125ms
Strings 100-200ms
Acoustic instruments 45-90ms
Brass 50-100ms



Use of Decay -

"If you use several different reverb types on a mix,
you might be better off in some cases in setting their decay time
close to each other or even set them the same as each other."

The thing to understand about decay is that the
longer the decay, the more the sound washes your mix. Too much and
you'll lose clarity. You want a big hall sound? Great, but keep
the decay under control. You like the sound of a big decay? Then
keep the wet/dry of the effect low to keep the sound from getting
lost in the mix. Changing this parameter will enlarge your room size.
The more the room is filled with absorbent the faster the
sound decays. If you do a sound check before people walk in to the
hall, expect it to sound different when they are sitting down!
Too long of a decay time will usually mess up your mix, Keep it as
long as needed, not longer.

In up-tempo songs, I like to use a short decay for most of the
instruments. This helps keep the mix clear and have space for the
other instruments. This also makes more room for the solo
instruments where I might want a longer decay time.

One way to choose the correct amount of decay time is to work it out
with the tempo of the song. For example: time the reverb on the
snare on a ballad so that if the snare is being hit on the 2 and 4
beat, the decay will run for 2 beats long. On some higher end
reverbs you can see the decay split into 3 frequencies,
low, medium, and high. With this kind of parameter control,
you can have more control over how the different frequency ranges
decay. For example you can make the high freq.'s decay longer and
the lower end, shorter. This can make a sound sharper or airy.
If you prolong the lower freq.'s in relation to the higher ones you
can also make the sound bigger.


Diffusion -

High settings of diffusion gives you a smoother sounding
reverb because the reflections are closer to each other.
With a busy arrangement your mix might sound too thick and unclear.
I like to use a higher setting on ballads and open arrangements.
Sometimes on rock drums I like the less smooth diffusion setting.

With a lower setting, it has a tendency to sound grainy.
I like to use it on up-tempo stuff and drums.

On some reverb units this parameter is called Density.
However, Density may be a parameter that controls the early
reflections while diffusion might control only the distance
BETWEEN ALL reflections. Low density works well with smooth sounds
like strings or to make a vocal sound fuller, while high density
works well with percussion.


High Freq. Roll-off -

Air absorbs higher frequencies more then lows.
In addition, it delays the high freq. a bit compared to the lower
nes. The further away the sound, the less it contains high freq.'s.
The higher freq.'s get somewhat blurred because of the time delay
and absorption. Using this knowledge, sound can be pushed farther or
closer away using the high frequency roll-off.


On double-tracked guitars, for example, try boosting one at around
1.5kHz, cutting at 600Hz, and rolling off some of the highs starting
at 3kHz. Conversely, reduce the other track by 2–3dB around
1–1.5kHz, and use a high-shelving EQ starting at around 3–4kHz to
bring out more of its highs. This will allow both tracks more space,
and create a better blend.

--------------------------

Reverb creates the illusion of space, but in doing so it also
'smears' the stereo localisation of the original sound source,
just as it does in real life. If you want to maintain a specific
stereo placement for one or more sounds in a mix, consider using a
mono reverb effect and panning the reverb to the same position as
the original dry sound.

Don't add long reverb to bass sounds unless you have an
artistic reason to do so, as this tends to muddy the low end of
the mix. If you need to add space to a kick drum, try a short
ambience program or a gated reverb as an alternative. If you are
in a position where you need to apply reverb to an entire drum mix,
roll off the low end feeding the reverb for a cleaner sound.

Reverb is very useful for making vocals sound more musical
and for making them sit with the rest of the mix, but adding
too much will have the effect of pushing the vocals back, rather
than allowing them to take front position. Experiment with
pre-delay values of 60-100mS to help counter this, and also try
using a reverb patch that has a lot of early reflections, as these
help reinforce the dry sound. You can learn a lot from listening
carefully to records you like to see how much and what type of
reverb is used. Often it's rather less than you think.

Vocals almost always require compression, but rather than doing
all the compressing at the recording stage, apply a little less
compression than you think you might ultimately need, then add
further compression when you come to mix. This dual-stage process
ensures you don't record an overcompressed sound, whilst still
allowing you to even out the level of the recorded signal.


Try panning mono reverbs to the placement of each rhythm guitar
mono tracks vs bouncing both mono rhythm guitar tracks to a stereo
track and adding a stereo verb.


---------------------------

Using “automatic double tracking” instead of playing the part
twice. It’s that popular preset in your multieffects:
Automatic Double Tracking, where the processor copies your signal,
delays it a bit, detunes the copy to “humanize” it, then recombines
it with the straight signal.

Although ADT is a valid effect in its own right if you want a sort
of more focused version of chorusing, nothing substitutes for
doubling a part by actually playing it twice. Furthermore, when you
record each part on a different channel, you can spread the stereo
image — one track more right, the other more left — for a bigger,
more enveloping sound.



---------------

Don't add long reverb to bass sounds unless you have an artistic
reason to do so, as this tends to muddy the low end of the mix.
If you need to add space to a kick drum, try a short ambience
program or a gated reverb as an alternative. If you are in a
position where you need to apply reverb to an entire drum mix,
roll off the low end feeding the reverb for a cleaner sound.

---------------
( the following is taken from a post in this board )

I like warm sounding rooms.

I try to emulate those rooms when setting up a reverb.
Most music produced in the last 5 years does not use those
phoney sounding plate reverbs. They have a place in music, just not
a prominate one.

Room reverbs will serve you well. Chamber reverbs will serve you
well. Medium to small rooms and chambers for medium to up tempo
stuff. Big rooms and chambers for slower stuff.

Three settings on a reverb that will make all the difference.

Pre-delay - This will allow the original signal develope before
the onset of reverb. There may be times where you want to wash out
the original sound, and will not have very much pre-delay at all,
but not very often.

Hi-Cut Filters. This will mellow out the reverb, and make it sound
like real rooms you will be in. Seldom do I have this set above 4KHz
. You just don't normally need reverb content above 4KHz.

Diffusion - Lower settings creates reverbs that are more distinct.
If you want a more subtle reverb that is not very noticable, raise
the value. It should seldom be above 20%. It can go as low as 7%
to sound cool.

Another setting that will make the reverb develope in interesting
ways is the X Bass setting. It may be labeled Hi Filter too,
but basically, it is a multiplier for the low end of a reverb.
A 1X value is the algorythym as it was coded. If the values run
1-10 like on most Yamaha reverbs, you are on your own to figure
out what they wanted to be the original algorythym. I would
normally just say DON'T use Yamaha reverbs at all, because they
are some of the most garbage can sounding things I have ever heard
in my life. I find that .8X works most of the time. Here and there,
you may go up to 2X, but usually only for reverbs assigned to very
bright sounding instruments.

Spend a lot of time on developing natural sounding reverbs and
save those to use later. You will find yourself using a lot of the
same 2 or 3 reverbs in most stuff you mix. Really. Don't settle
for factory presets. Get into the unit and play around a lot and
find reverbs that sound like rooms you have been in before.
These are the most desirable ones to use.

Here and there you are going to create special reverbs that are
very intentional effects. Use these sparingly over the course of a
whole CD of several songs. Overuse numbs the user to the effect.

-----------


Something off another recording board:

A popular trick is to put reverb on an Aux bus
(be sure it's a stereo patch), and feed different amounts to
different tracks; more to the ones you want further back on stage.
However, avoid putting much on the drums.

---------


Try to record things in true stereo, using two mikes to maintain
accurate sonic images. Use reverb judiciously to balance items
placed to one side in the mix. Example: When putting tambourine
in the left channel, create real stereo space using a stereo reverb.
Be sure to have a sufficient amount of reverb to create a
convincing sonic image.

When using reverb on vocals, it is important to create a stereo
reverb space around the vocals and not dead center. Real reverb
does not occur dead center and in mono. Things should sound as
they actually do in real space unless you are trying to create
an effect.

-----


That's it for now. Hope it sheds some light on the subject of reverb like it did for me!

Derek
 
I use a room impulse response applied (very lightly) to the master bus to help "sum" everything up, but also apply individual reverb to individual tracks as needed.

The guidelines above are great - but remember to use your ears above the numbers any day. They are a great place to start and get you in the right direction - but then close your eyes and mix with your ears.
 
A bit of reverb or gated reverb on the kik can give a good sound. Im sure A perfect circle and Deftones albums use this technique. Could be wrong though.
 
Yeah


After a while, you learn that reverb can be one of those things that can make all the difference or simply kill it. It's really just a matter of personal taste and trained ears.

You could apply a very light hall reverb to an overall mix. However, that pretty much takes away the purpose of having individual reverb altogether.

For example, I'll treat reverb as an aux, or I'll send a copy of my signal into 2 open I/Os and use that copy as my reverb/FX track. Then I can just adjust how much reverb I want from there.

The possibilities are limited to your imagination. :D
 
One other thing that may or may not apply to you. If you have only one or two reverb rack units, then you will have to plan ahead. You might have to add reverb as you record some of the separate tracks, thus keeping your units for adding reverb as needed to a track selectively at mixdown. The downside, is you are stuck with it.

If you have lots of reverb units, then you will have more control over the sound by applying them all to the final mixdown stage, as needed, and you would be better to not record reverb on each track as you record it.

Also, it depends on how many tracks you have to work with. You didn't way whether you were recording digital or analog. If you are using a DAW, then you should have unlimited track potential. If you are using analog tape, or ADAT, then I assume 8 is your limit. In the later case, then your are usually stuck with 2 tracks for the drum kit. Therefore, you'll need to preplan to get the drum mix 'etched in stone' and perfect before going any further.

Jack the Dog
 
Jack Russell said:
Also, it depends on how many tracks you have to work with. You didn't way whether you were recording digital or analog. If you are using a DAW, then you should have unlimited track potential. If you are using analog tape, or ADAT, then I assume 8 is your limit. In the later case, then your are usually stuck with 2 tracks for the drum kit. Therefore, you'll need to preplan to get the drum mix 'etched in stone' and perfect before going any further.

Jack the Dog

DAW - I only have one external reverb unit - rest is off plugs. As I said in the first post, i usually have about 8 or so drum tracks about 16-20 tracks total.
 
Don't be so hard on yourself. This isn't a stupid reverb question. A stupid reverb question would be "What reverb do I use to get my songs as loud as commercial CDs". :D

Anyway, here is my general approach to using reverb:
First I listen to see if any is needed. More and more often these days I find room ambience already recorded in the microphones is enough by itself. If I think I do need reverb, I'll create one setting to put on the instruments. I find that one reverb for all instruments helps tie things together. The exeptions are lead vocals and snare drum. They usually get reverb settings of their own.

Sometimes you find out that reverb isn't what you need at all and a delay will work. Mess around until you are happy.
 
Myself, I like old fashion plate reverbs (real ones) when I can get them. Some things I do, which can all be applied to digital reverbs just as easily:

I almost always strip the shit out of the low end of the sends to the reverb. Low end frequencies have a tendency to build up and make the reverb sound muddy. This seriously limits the amount of reverb you can put on a recording before it just becomes mush.

Also, because I usually use only one reverb on a song, I will frequently use separate sends for the various tracks going to the reverb, and EQ them slightly different. This helps to differentiate the reverbs, while still helping to hold the mix together as a whole. Striping away the low end shit also allows you to just pile on the reverb. Huge amounts of it. It makes for a very appealing, and very "airy" sound. If I tried to put on as much reverb as I usually do without any kind of filtering, it would just not work. It would be horrible.

I will add a bit of pre-delay to some of the instruments, by delaying the send on some of the tracks. This, again, helps to give different tracks a different ambience while still giving the track a distinctive and cohesive sound.

Like I said, I love plates. If you can get a good plate sound, they really work well for most guitar music, as far as I am concerned.

Also, remember that recording does not have to be about recreating or capturing a moment. That is fine as far as it goes, but a recording can never capture the energy of a performance, so why try? I tend to think of recording as a separate art form from recording. If you want to see a live band, go see them live. You are not going to get the same experience from a recording. This philosophy has a big effect on how I mix and use reverb. I don't try to make it sound like something else; I try to give it its own sound.

Not every track needs reverb. If you can't make a reverb sound right, try using a timed delay. An eighth or quarter note, single or double tap delay can often be exactly the right ambience, particularly for really heavy music, or dance music.

And sometimes, it doesn't want reverb OR delay. You can do some really interesting things with panned distortions and heavily compressed doubles or clones. If you want to hear this done right, listen to just about anything by Tchad Blake (among other things, he mixed the last Peter Gabriel album, and a bunch of Los Lobos stuff in the `90s). He is a real master of doing unusual ambience textures. I have read reviews with him saying he has gone, once or twice, gone years without using a single reverb (and this is a guy who does a whole bunch of records every year). Now, that may well have been hyperbole, I don't know, buy it is certainly true that his sound doesn't seem to rely much on reverb.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
from what i understand, on main vocals (Centered) stereo reverb is needed.How much is at your discretion.Chorused vocals get a mono reverb.
 
It sounds to me like you're using reverbs as "insert" effects on individual tracks. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that. However, you mention using one stereo 'verb on the toms, and another 'verb on the overheads. I think that can be a problem. Of course, that all depends on how different they actually are. A better idea would be to set your reverbs up as "Send" effects and use the same reverb on the toms and overheads. You might want that same reverb on the snare as well. I often will use a different reverb on my snare, often a gated type, and then also bleed a little of the snare into the same reverb I am using for my toms. As for applying reverb to the Overheads, don't overdo it. You might not even really need to at all.

Of course this is all dependent on the song.
 
GamezBond said:
from what i understand, on main vocals (Centered) stereo reverb is needed.How much is at your discretion.Chorused vocals get a mono reverb.


You don't "have" to do anything. You need to experiment, and see what YOU like. That's the only thing that matters. If that is the sound you like, then do it. Myself, I almost never do things quite that way.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I second the "send" option. I used to put separate reverbs on each track I wanted them for; putting the reverb on the send and sending different amounts there for each track sounded better. for me, at least. remember to keep the wet at 100% and the dry at 0%.
 
Light said:
You don't "have" to do anything. You need to experiment, and see what YOU like. That's the only thing that matters. If that is the sound you like, then do it. Myself, I almost never do things quite that way.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Don't argue with me fool, I produced and mixed track # 11 on Ashlee Simpsons debut album, what have you done :mad: !
 
GamezBond said:
Don't argue with me fool, I produced and mixed track # 11 on Ashlee Simpsons debut album, what have you done :mad: !


A few well known comercials, but lately, unlike you (apparently), just a bunch of good music.


:D


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
GamezBond said:
Don't argue with me fool, I produced and mixed track # 11 on Ashlee Simpsons debut album, what have you done :mad: !
You managed to pull that off without knowing:
what a tube amp is,
what type of panning is best,
how to keep the kick and snare to stop clipping,
that you need an amp for passive monitors,
that you can't connect the digital out of your SOUNDBLASTER to the analog input of your roland micro monitors,
etc...
I can't believe that, you, of all people on this forum, have the balls to even attempt to give advise. Then, once you have made some ill concieved blanket statement, you lash out when someone points out that yours is not the only answer. How much ignorance and stupidity can one person have?
 
I just came in here to see what was going on. I didn't realize it was a war. I'm too new to offer advice on reverb. I am the guy who just applies it to the master to wash the whole track. Now I see that it can be used all over the mix... so I did learn something.



Now I need to learn how to do it. But that will be hands on.
 
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