Raising Master Fader to gain volume

Also, if you send the drums to a bus, you can put a limiter on the bus. Drums do well with limiting. That way, the problem peaks get taken care of without affecting the whole mix.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
It'll probably sound more constricted than distorted but I bet if you clip the heck out of your master bus you'll be able to hear it.
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I dunno....I just cranked my DAW MB to the top...that's +12 dBFS...and I took my converter level and mad sure it too was all at it's fullest...and the music was pegging the red at both locations, and still, not clipping.
I then cranked the Snare track to about +6dB...and finally, I started to hear a bit of distortion, but it wasn't digital clipping, it was probably the analog side of the converter that finally ran out of headroom (hope I didn't damage the sucker).

Like I said, I think in my setup, there is something compensating at the DAW said,...as my converter metering only goes to 0 dBFS...once I reached that point...even though I cranked the DAW, it wasn't causing any clipping.
I use Samplitude ProX...and I'm running 3 of the older Layla24 boxes (which I've always liked for their sound and ease of use).

So that's what I was getting it...that if you just go by audible clipping, and think you are OK, but your DAW meters are showing red...I would bring down that MB fader before exporting out any sound clips, as the DAW is "hiding" the true loudness with its internal processing depth. Maybe other DAWs do it differently...but that's how it is with my setup.
If however, I import a sound clip that was clipped...then yeah, I do hear the clipping
 
So one would think that the name of the game is keep it out of the red. Always.

In protools I've had the master clipping at the meters, but heard NO distortion in the daw as well.
As soon as I bounce to a 16 bit wav file...... Bingo! You now hear the clipping. Sounds nasty.

I recently discovered post fader metering. (Default on PT is prefader)
This discovery was priceless. I could now see what was really happening.
There were some drum sounds that sounded nasty, I mean really bad, and that perplexed me. The master fader showed no clipping, but once I switched over to post fader metering, I saw where the snare and kick were going into the red.
So once again, the moral is; Keep it out of the red.
 
RFR said:
So once again, the moral is; Keep it out of the red.
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This completely depends on what "in the red" means in your DAW. Different meters are different, and many are configurable.

"Keep it below 0dbfs" is better.
 
I would think the key here (Mirosla's and PFR's posts) is sorting out a) how much over 0dBFS are we talking about? and b) at what point over 0dBFS do you start hearing the overs- with the example you're using (a snare over is very brief, and a clipped snare doesn't necessarily sound odd to us (not to mention we're used to the sound . ) Try it with a clean bass, or vocal..?
"...once I switched over to post fader metering, I saw where the snare and kick were going into the red. "
Exactally. I want my metering to be placed in the chain to show everything going on. (Sorta relates back to why I use bus gain for adjustments (on the master at least) and keep the fader at zero.
 
mixsit said:
I would think the key here (Miroslav's and PFR's posts) is sorting out a) how much over 0dBFS are we talking about?
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As I mentioned...in the DAW the meters were at +12 dBFS....no audible clipping.

My converter has a +22dBu max (pretty fucking loud) before the analog side will start to show distortion....which was confirmed by how hard I had to push everything to begin to hear the analog side get crunchy...but still, there was no audible digital clipping while working from the DAW...due to it's high internal processing...which is why it's dangerous to simply crank the MB fader and go by your ears.

I would export out a file, and then see what you really have at 16/44.1
 
Can't fucking quote, can't edit.. this sucks.
Ok
Something isn't adding up then. Your converters don't clip at +12!
 
And this would be the D/A. How 'hot (Analog out at 0dBFS is variable between converters. Mine can be scaled to three different ranges. But it doesn't change where 0dBFS is.
Maybe you have an 'offset' engaged? (In Sonar it's a separate layer. Adds or subtracts level to/from the normal view?
 
I think the DAW while playing back within its 32 bit FP system, is making some kind of compensation for the converters.

Again...I had the DAW slamming at +12 dBFS...the soft console for the converter set at the normal +4 reference level, and there the meter only goes to 0 dBFS....regardless of what I was seeing in the DAW.
So all in the red, cranked...and NO digital clipping.

I know it was LOUD as hell, because I had to turn my Monitors way lower to keep from blowing out my ears from their usual monitoring setting...so yeah, it wasn't just a visual metering thing...there was some serious volume, but still no digital clipping.

That said, if I bounce out an audio file like that...and then play it back, it's clipped to the max.
 
miroslav said:
I think the DAW while playing back within its 32 bit FP system, is making some kind of compensation for the converters.

Again...I had the DAW slamming at +12 dBFS...the soft console for the converter set at the normal +4 reference level, and there the meter only goes to 0 dBFS....regardless of what I was seeing in the DAW.
So all in the red, cranked...and NO digital clipping.

I know it was LOUD as hell, because I had to turn my Monitors way lower to keep from blowing out my ears from their usual monitoring setting...so yeah, it wasn't just a visual metering thing...there was some serious volume, but still no digital clipping.

That said, if I bounce out an audio file like that...and then play it back, it's clipped to the max.
Click to expand...

the 32bit audio is just for the mixer. when you render the track, you will go back to smaller bit size.

Yes its going to sound bad if you are truely slamming it at +12dbfs. Now, if your scale in your daw is K-12 type (the top number on the meter scale is +12 instead of 0) your peaks should be somewhere +8 K-12. if you are on the dbfs EBU scale (the top number is zero) then you need the peak settle in at somewhere -4 dbfs.

If I want to mix a mix that is open but loud sounding but not too loud, I would do a -22 nominal with-20 peak, bounce, then normalize. This method I got from Bruice Sweden when the pros were digital noobies. I think he even used it for the Thriller Album, but I would have to contact him about it to confirm this. But that would explain the mastering to nominal level thing that album went through throughout the decades.

another thing to consider is when you burn this to a cd how bad you are going to clip that DAC with a clipped DAW signal.
 
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Can we make a Cliff's Notes in layman's terms?
It's getting so technical, and I can't keep up with all this.
 
Nola said:
Can we make a Cliff's Notes in layman's terms?
It's getting so technical, and I can't keep up with all this.
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There is no point. Something very, very strange is going on with his rig. It doesn't act like anyone elses, so explaining it is a waste of time, since it will apply to no one else.
 
Farview said:
Something very, very strange is going on with his rig. It doesn't act like anyone elses, so explaining it is a waste of time, since it will apply to no one else.
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If you mean my rig...:)...there's absolutely nothing "strange" going on with it.

The DAW is simply NOT creating digital clipping no matter how much I crank as long as I stay in the DAW due to it's internal processing depth.
If I export at those high levels to lower bit depth...anything over 0 dBFS will be clipping and it will be audible.
That's pretty normal, IMO.
Any DAW that goes into audible clipping when you exceed 0 dBFS simply doesn't have the processing depth to avoid it.

I'm not using any odd metering or settings. Everything is pretty much at default installation settings...both DAW and converters.

As I already said...I don't ever work that way...and I don't ever use my MB fader up past 0 dBFS just to raise my overall levels.
I only did this as an experiment to support what I was saying to Nola...that just because you don't *hear* the clipping while working in the DAW, you still have to be careful with the MB fader going too high, because on export to a lower bit depth, the clipping will be there.
RFR pretty much confirmed the exact same scenario with his system.
 
Now I'm thinking we've had this discussion before, with Miro I guess? But danged if I remember what came of it.
Interesting if it's the meter scaling?
 
mixsit said:
Now I'm thinking we've had this discussion before, with Miro I guess? But danged if I remember what came of it.
Interesting if it's the meter scaling?
Click to expand...

Naa...I don't remember ever talking about this or doing this experiment with my DAW...I just know that when I have occasionally cranked my MB fader...I have never, ever gotten audible clipping from the DAW or my converters.

I can bounce this question on the Samplitude user forum...but I do seem to recall that it's all about the internal processing.
Not sure if Samplitude does something a little different, but not hearing audible clipping with a high bit depth DAW system at higher dBFS levels, is nothing unusual.
I would think it would be more "strange" for a DAW operating at high bith depth and FP processing to have audible clipping.

Exporting out is where it all becomes evident.
 
That's the strange part... the interface is fixed point, so anything above 0dbfs should clip the converters, even if it isn't clipping in the box.

The only thing that would stop that would be if samplitude was scaling the signal to match the converter's limits...which no other daw does. I will test this out on my version of samplitude in a couple weeks.

All daws run a floating point bit depth internally, but it gets converted to fixed point for the converters. Unless the daw is scaling the output, the converters will.clip. if the daw is scaling the output, then the metering is useless at that point.
 
Ok here's what I got. Run a track gain up till I'm +8 or 10 on the master bus (set at zero) - obviously distorted.
Assign the track to a sub group, sub assigned to master. Cut the sub fader so the level is back to normal. Clear as a bell again. That is internal 32 bit float' mixer depth (headroom.

Now, when I first started the test (at '+8 on the master) it actually didn't sound very distorted. Guess what.. I had -4 set on the master in RME's Total Mix. That almost fooled me-- until I dialed that back to 'zero.
 
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