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Thread: Proper use of the Haas effect in mixing...

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    Proper use of the Haas effect in mixing...

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    I'm trying to work on depth perception in my mixes. Can someone break down using the Haas effect to accomplish this?
    Last edited by bigwillz24; 12-30-2006 at 17:58.

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    well, its like this. if I were in the room talking to you right now, my voice would be bounching off the floor and the walls and the ceiling and arriving at your ears as well as the direct sound. now, if I were standing behind you your brain would use those cues to determine where in the room I am. so in this case, the reflections compute to a single location, or a single source.

    if we were in a much larger room, or out in the forest or something, you might hear my voice as well as the reflection coming from a different place. this happens when the brain hears the reflection as a separately distinct sound.

    whether your brain perceives the reflections as part of the source or as a separate entity, has to do with the length of time before the reflection is heard. at least this has come to be my understanding of the Haas effect.

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    Okay I understand that but how do I do that with 2 speakers and a mixer?

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    I dont think you can. it has to do with delay effects. a quick delay will give locational information. a longer one the brain discards because it could lead to false directional information...it hears it as a separate delay.

    so..you can pan delays and room mics to give the brain a sense of space...beyond that I wish I knew more myself on specific tricks and stuff. but I think this is where a very quick delay can make something sound fatter but the length of that delay and its panning will have different effects on the brains sense of location. just a guess.

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    The Haas effect - or the proximity effect - stated in relation to depth of field says that if you have two consecutive sounds that are of equal volume level and come close enough togther in time (typically in the range of a few ms), the brain will perceive the first sound as being closer, even though the volumes are not different.

    It's common to use this effect in mixing to help create texture where there otherwise may not be a lot of room or flexibiliy in the mix to do so. One familiar example may be the common competition between bass and kick. If you want to pull the kick out a little from the bass, but you don't nedcessarily want it any higher in the mix, you might slid the kick forward in time (or the bass back) by a few ms and let Hass trick you into thinking that the kick is louder than the bass.

    Similar effects can be done with doubled guitar lines to make one line more dominant than the other.

    The caveat to watch out for in those examples, however, is that playing with the timing of the rhythm relations can change the feel of the beat itself if your not careful. But done right, Haas is a nice tool to use to create some mixing space where it night not otherwise exist.

    G.
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    Hey Southside...

    So if 1ms is equal to approximately 1 ft. applying -1ms of delay move a bass foward/behind a kick 1 foot as if on a stage?

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    It's a technique we use in theatre so the audience percieve the sound to be coming from the stage as apposed to the speakers. We usually delay oneside of the pa by about 2 ms, this fools the audiences brains into thinking the sound came from the stage in front of them. The size of room and position dictates how much to delay to apply, and if you are using extra sound reinforcement from the front, through the sides and to the back of the auditorium the calculations have to be precise for each speaker otherwise phasing can occur.
    I give espskully the splats

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthSIDE Glen
    The Haas effect - or the proximity effect - stated in relation to depth of field says that if you have two consecutive sounds that are of equal volume level and come close enough togther in time (typically in the range of a few ms), the brain will perceive the first sound as being closer, even though the volumes are not different.

    It's common to use this effect in mixing to help create texture where there otherwise may not be a lot of room or flexibiliy in the mix to do so. One familiar example may be the common competition between bass and kick. If you want to pull the kick out a little from the bass, but you don't nedcessarily want it any higher in the mix, you might slid the kick forward in time (or the bass back) by a few ms and let Hass trick you into thinking that the kick is louder than the bass.

    Similar effects can be done with doubled guitar lines to make one line more dominant than the other.

    The caveat to watch out for in those examples, however, is that playing with the timing of the rhythm relations can change the feel of the beat itself if your not careful. But done right, Haas is a nice tool to use to create some mixing space where it night not otherwise exist.

    G.

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    Thanks for that.

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    Try this with a guitar track or any mono track ...

    Double it pan one hard left. Put about a 30ms delay on the other and pan it hard right.

    Adjust the volume of the track on the right.

    Wow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwillz24
    Hey Southside...

    So if 1ms is equal to approximately 1 ft. applying -1ms of delay move a bass foward/behind a kick 1 foot as if on a stage?
    I don't know if there's that direct or simple of a measured relatinship or not. I'd tend to think that it's not quite that straightforward; how wide and how far away does the stage sound to begin with? There's a lot of factors involved there.

    For example, if the kick and bass sound like they are only 3 feet in front of you, a 3ms difference is not going to put one on top of you and leave the other 3ft away. Also, as falken implied, when you get too much of a delay in there the effect disappears because the brain no longer considers the two sounds as "related".

    Haas, to me, anyway, is more of a subtle (but effective) pshchoacoutic effect that falls apart and disappears if you try examine it too hard with your ears. If you just let it happen, it works. Also because of it's subtly, it can sometimes get buried by other more prominent things happening. It works best on more transient sounds; heavier sustain or reverb can wash it right out, for example. And if both sounds that your trying to relate are already buried too deep in a mix, don't expect Haas to magically bring the early sound several dB forward to the front of the mix or anything like that.

    It's more of a way - for me anyway - of subtly seperating sounds in an already pretty solid mix to add a little more "texture" and "room" without having to break the current mix. It can make a good mix sound better, but it can't make a bad mix sound good.

    G.
    Glen J. Stephan,
    SouthSIDE Multimedia Productions

    RECORDING RESOURCES AND INFO SITE:

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