Producing Space With Reverb

bdam123

Member
So I've been thinking about ways to better achieve front to back separation using reverb. I would assume that generally most mixers want to produce the illusion that everything in the production is sitting in a 3D space. I've been experimenting with the use of predelay and found there is quite a dramatic effect on how it moves elements front to back. So I thought, how about setting up 3 (or more) of the same reverbs and using the predelay to designate each one to a point in the space. The one up front would have the most predelay and the one for the elements in the back of the space would have none.

I dont find too many people describing something like this when they talk about how they use their reverbs. Have any of you experimented with something similar?

I think with this kind implementation in conjunction with high cut filters you could achieve some pretty dramatic results.

I want to study more about early reflections to and see how I can incorporate those into painting a clearer picture of the space I want my productions to sit.

Thoughts?
 
It's not all that new or novel.
There are many ways to use reverb(s).

I like to mix a variety of 100% dry tracks with wet tracks of varying degrees, and pre-delay is certainly a key parameter when setting up the various reverbs. Most times I'll use only 1-2 reverbs, but I vary their pre-delay, intensity and of course, decay time.
 
First "trick" I ever learned was to pan a dry track hard and a short delay panned the other way. Playing with the delay time and volume of the delayed channel was an eye opener.
 
It's not uncommon as far as I can tell to have more than one reverb going on, but it doesn't suit me too well. I think it's as valid as any other approach but it seems to complicate adding reverb (which is normally one of the simpler processes in mixing) quite a bit.

I normally go for one reverb only, very occasionally I'll use a different one for vocals. A bit of EQ on the reverb channel can make a world of difference sometimes.
 
I never use anything like this, never add any reverb to guitars/bass other than what I get out of the amp.

I do add reverb on vocals on the rare occasions I get around to adding vocals.

Can someone explain in simple terms what this is all about?
 
IMO, Pre-delay is fucking crucial to getting space and realistic reverb. If you want your mix to sound like it's in the same space, use the same reverb. If you want the elements within the mix to have their own place, use the pre-delay feature. It's not technical trickery or uncommon. It's basic reverb stuff. Play with it and make it happen.
 
IMO, Pre-delay is fucking crucial to getting space and realistic reverb. If you want your mix to sound like it's in the same space, use the same reverb. If you want the elements within the mix to have their own place, use the pre-delay feature. It's not technical trickery or uncommon. It's basic reverb stuff. Play with it and make it happen.

What, you mean give every instrument a slightly different amount of pre-delay. I don't put anything on my drums either and they normally sound a bit flat.
 
What, you mean give every instrument a slightly different amount of pre-delay. I don't put anything on my drums either and they normally sound a bit flat.

No I'm not saying that. I'm saying if you want to give the elements of your mix different placement and front-to-back space, pre-delay will get you there. Pre-delay is what creates the illusion of a clean sound in a big space, or a huge roomy distant sound in space.

Take a guitar amp in a gigantic airplane hangar, for example. The space is huge, the amp is one sound. If you're standing right in front of the amp, you'll hear it clearly, and the reverb/delay will come later from being in such a huge place - that's pre-delay. Now put that amp way at the back of the hangar and listen. It will be a distant mush with all the giant space mixed in - little to no pre-delay. In the close example, you get the instant clean clear sound and the reverb kicks in a few ms later. In the distant example, the room's reverb is mixed in by the time you hear the sound. That's how pre-delay gives you the front to back illusion.

And from there, you can pan the reverb to give addition left and right detail in space.

Having said all that, I hate reverb. I use it very sparingly. Nothing makes a mix sound cheap, sloppy, and dated like bad use of reverb.
 
As I usually look at my mixes like it was a band playing in front of me (or around me), I use 1 reverb impulse file, typically on 3 busses (I use 1 for drums, one for instruments and 1 for vocals so that I can control each as needed), but I leave each one with the same pre-delay, typically in the 10-20msec range - I don't want it to sound like the drummer is in the 'back of the hanger' - I just want to tie everything together so that it sounds in the same room.
 
As I usually look at my mixes like it was a band playing in front of me (or around me), I use 1 reverb impulse file, typically on 3 busses (I use 1 for drums, one for instruments and 1 for vocals so that I can control each as needed), but I leave each one with the same pre-delay, typically in the 10-20msec range - I don't want it to sound like the drummer is in the 'back of the hanger' - I just want to tie everything together so that it sounds in the same room.

Agreed. There aint much about a mix that turns me off more than sounds that sound like they're in different rooms. Amateurish.
 
Cheers, all interesting info. Didn't know what any of them terms meant until now.
 
Cheers, all interesting info. Didn't know what any of them terms meant until now.

Honestly, it's not something that I think you need to dig to deeply into. I mean, play with it, learn it, understand it, but don't think you have to do anything with it. Your kind of music, my kind of music, we don't need much reverb shenanigans.
 
Definitely not a new concept, but good on you for discovering it. I generally use two versions of a room reverb in a mix: one with almost no pre-delay and a very short tail for "glue" or "ambiance" and the same room with 40-70ms of pre-delay and a longer tail (suited for the style/tempo of the song) for placing instruments in the room. I will typically also set up a spring verb that can be mixed in *with* the room verb on vocals and/or guitars. Very song dependent.
 
Honestly, it's not something that I think you need to dig to deeply into. I mean, play with it, learn it, understand it, but don't think you have to do anything with it. Your kind of music, my kind of music, we don't need much reverb shenanigans.

I just thought it might be something that could help make my drums sound a little more lively.
 
Just coming in sideways -- Using different verbs, or especially different takes on the "same" verb, is certainly a valid process if it does what you want. [/okie dokie]

That all said, you're adding spaces -- You aren't changing the original space. Nothing gives the illusion of "depth and space" like depth and space will.

If you mic everything from a foot away, you'll end up with a recording that sounds 1' "deep" with varying spaces behind sources. If you vary the distance of microphones, especially pairs (not necessarily ORTF or XY pairs, but a near and far pair), you're changing what that mic hears -- Not just in the time domain, but in the way the source sounds at a distance.

I could dig up a zillion recordings where it sounds like there's a band set "inside" of a giant drum kit. No matter how hard you pan everything, no matter how much or how many reverbs. The only thing that was more than a foot from the source are the overheads on the kit and it shows in the mix. Delays can help, sure. But keep in mind what that 'phantom' source would hear -- It wouldn't be the same thing the source mic hears.

In any case, keep in mind that one of the biggest 'selling points' of any studio is the space itself. It's the one commonality in every recording that comes out. And if has far more impact on the finished product than one may think.
 
As I usually look at my mixes like it was a band playing in front of me (or around me), I use 1 reverb impulse file, typically on 3 busses (I use 1 for drums, one for instruments and 1 for vocals so that I can control each as needed), but I leave each one with the same pre-delay, typically in the 10-20msec range - I don't want it to sound like the drummer is in the 'back of the hanger' - I just want to tie everything together so that it sounds in the same room.

I do something similar to that, although I may use different impulse files. But if I use different impulse files, they'll still be very similar. I won't use a small ambiance file for a vocal and a Large Hall for a guitar. It'll be maybe a small ambiance impulse and a slightly less small ambiance impulse.

But after reading this thread, I may play around more with pre-delay to improve front-to-back-ness. Nothing dramatic, but maybe a 40 msec predelay on a lead vocal and a 20 msec predelay on guitars and BGVs or something similar. Might be fun to play around with.
 
A lot of great responses here. I'm going to be experimenting with with these instrumentals I just finished but i haven't recorded any vocals yet and I sort of want that to be my anchor.

My main goal is to try to approach the use of reverb as strictly a "space" tool. For a while, I just thought of it as "wet". I've been studying a lot of mainstream mixes lately and I find that all the mixes that sound best to me, namely stuff from Serben, Pensado, and Marroquin, are all fairly dry sounding. Yet, they have enormous spacial character. It sometimes feels as if you're surrounded by the music while standing face to face with the vocalist. Thats the kind of mix I want to achieve. As 3D as I can get it.
 
IMO, Pre-delay is fucking crucial to getting space and realistic reverb. If you want your mix to sound like it's in the same space, use the same reverb. If you want the elements within the mix to have their own place, use the pre-delay feature. It's not technical trickery or uncommon. It's basic reverb stuff. Play with it and make it happen.

What if you setup an FX track with reverb and send everything to that. Can you adjust the pre-delay for everything feeding into it? Would this be via automation?

Or do you have to setup a 2nd FX track?
 
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