Possible Stupid Question Regarding Mix Levels

4

4tracker

Guest
I recently received a 20 year old master tape transferred down to wav file format. I imported them all into the daw. I am going to remix them since the original mix was horrible.

My question: what level should the "volume" of each track be set at? Does these need to be held below 0 at all times like the master fader? In Cubase they go as high as 6, so can I bump something that high safely?

Thanks. Sorry if this is a dumb question.
 
The way it's geared up in cubase is that you have some slack in the mix bus, so I personally don't find the fader setting itself a real problem. If the levels are a bit low, the full may still not be enough, so you can up the master if you need to, or drop back the others with little impact on the quality. If I have the occasional track that is a bit low for comfort, I sometimes use the make up gain on a compressor insert with no real compression to get it up a bit, and that is pretty transparent.
 
rob aylestone said:
The way it's geared up in cubase is that you have some slack in the mix bus, so I personally don't find the fader setting itself a real problem. If the levels are a bit low, the full may still not be enough, so you can up the master if you need to, or drop back the others with little impact on the quality. If I have the occasional track that is a bit low for comfort, I sometimes use the make up gain on a compressor insert with no real compression to get it up a bit, and that is pretty transparent.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

On some of the drum tracks, even with the fader at 6 (the max) it's pretty low. But it's okay to ride it up that high?

I am right to say going above 0 only matters on the master fader, not the channel faders?
 
One more question: say you are mixing at fairly low levels just to save your ears and you wind up with all your channels too low -- is it best to raise them all by the same increment (e.g. 2db), or is it best to increase volume on the master channel with a limiter? I'm not a fan of compression so I'd rather not maximize or limit the master channel too much, but I can't figure out an easy way to raise all the channels the same amount.
 
4tracker said:
My question: what level should the "volume" of each track be set at?
Click to expand...

Aim for an average level on the master meter of around -18dBFS. You may first want to use the clip gain function (or whatever it's called in Cubase) to get track levels all averaging around that same level. Doing this I find my faders end up varying amounts below 0.
 
4tracker said:
One more question: say you are mixing at fairly low levels just to save your ears and you wind up with all your channels too low -- is it best to raise them all by the same increment (e.g. 2db), or is it best to increase volume on the master channel with a limiter? I'm not a fan of compression so I'd rather not maximize or limit the master channel too much, but I can't figure out an easy way to raise all the channels the same amount.
Click to expand...

Adjust your monitoring levels with your monitoring system, not with your DAW. An exception might be a Preview fader that doesn't affect the project's actual levels.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Aim for an average level on the master meter of around -18dBFS.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

This is true for material that's already been recorded and imported, too? That's my case. I thought -18 was only for recording new material.

Also, where in cubase can you read the average dBFS for the master fader? I don't see that setting. Is a plugin required? I see the peak level on the master but not the average dbfs.
 
4tracker said:
This is true for material that's already been recorded and imported, too? That's my case. I thought -18 was only for recording new material.
Click to expand...

Think of -18dBFS (or thereabouts) as the replacement for 0dBVU. Whether it's a fresh recording or something imported that's where you want things to start and where you want them to stay through the mix process. As long as you don't clip it won't hurt to have hotter track levels, but there's no advantage. Aiming for -18dB leaves you plenty of headroom.

4tracker said:
Also, where in cubase can you read the average dBFS for the master fader? I don't see that setting. Is a plugin required?
Click to expand...

Your meter should read 0 at the top of the scale and negative values below that. Just make your levels bounce above and below -18 about equally, never getting too close to the 0. If you have an unusually dynamic mix you may want to aim for something lower, like -20dB.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Your meter should read 0 at the top of the scale and negative values below that. Just make your levels bounce above and below -18 about equally, never getting too close to the 0. If you have an unusually dynamic mix you may want to aim for something lower, like -20dB.
Click to expand...

Thanks, yeah, it reads 0 at the top of the scale on the master fader, and then there are negative values below (~ -4db), but it says these are "peak levels". So there is no actual dBFS meter (i.e. something that shows if I am -18 on the master fader)? Also that meter can be changed to input fader, post fader, or post panner. Do you know which it should be?

When I record new material into the DAW, I set the channel at -18 and that sounds great. But these files imported at 0db on each channel, though, so I am not used to this. I have no idea what they were recorded at (probably near 0 on VU since it was analog). I'm just a bit confused where to set the channels since I don't use the DAW much and never imported something. I'll google around some more.
 
Er, it does, in the window at the bottom - your master is on 0, the other channels all show the usual dB reduction in the boxes.

In simplistic terms, red is bad, green is good, and the box also goes red if an over level event is detected - so you could adjust the master fader so that you are close to, but not exceeding 0dB - for the obvious distortion reasons. People nowadays do not do this - mainly because it means your music will be louder than somebody else - imagine going to iTunes, or youtube and having to turn down every one of your tracks, compared to others. Overall dynamic range is now really great, so there's no need to push things. If you bring in an audio CD - a commercially produced one, look at the waveform, it doesn't remotely peak at 0dB any longer. In cubase, the mix bus is the usual problem area when you have lots of loud tracks - hence why the common advice is NOT to normalise - if you start to have to bring down the master significantly, then you are running very hot, and even with floating point processing, there are limits. If you look at a few waveforms of commercial CDs in your genre of music, see where they peak and try to replicate it in yours - the -18dB figure seems a sensible one - but you can push it from there if you have to. In a busy mix, it's still usually possible to have the working area on each channel somewhere around the ¾ fader travel point, as you can go up and down from there quite simply. It's not an absolute, you need to use your ears to detect things not quite right. Output level is pretty flexible from the avoiding noise and distortion perspective, but -18 gives a rough conformity between recordings. Don't forget that not all tracks need to be the same average, either. So a loud piece followed by a quiet piece shouldn't be at the same peak level, it sounds wrong.

We produce lots of show tracks, and because the playback kit is very variable, we do record these hotter, just a bit, because with an audience, a quiet track may require a fader prod that can't be done - it's already up! -18dB might seem a bit low, but it does work, and is a kind of standard, just subject to a little genre +/-
 
rob aylestone said:
Er, it does, in the window at the bottom - your master is on 0, the other channels all show the usual dB reduction in the boxes.

In simplistic terms, red is bad, green is good, and the box also goes red if an over level event is detected - so you could adjust the master fader so that you are close to, but not exceeding 0dB - for the obvious distortion reasons. People nowadays do not do this - mainly because it means your music will be louder than somebody else - imagine going to iTunes, or youtube and having to turn down every one of your tracks, compared to others. Overall dynamic range is now really great, so there's no need to push things. If you bring in an audio CD - a commercially produced one, look at the waveform, it doesn't remotely peak at 0dB any longer. In cubase, the mix bus is the usual problem area when you have lots of loud tracks - hence why the common advice is NOT to normalise - if you start to have to bring down the master significantly, then you are running very hot, and even with floating point processing, there are limits. If you look at a few waveforms of commercial CDs in your genre of music, see where they peak and try to replicate it in yours - the -18dB figure seems a sensible one - but you can push it from there if you have to. In a busy mix, it's still usually possible to have the working area on each channel somewhere around the ¾ fader travel point, as you can go up and down from there quite simply. It's not an absolute, you need to use your ears to detect things not quite right. Output level is pretty flexible from the avoiding noise and distortion perspective, but -18 gives a rough conformity between recordings. Don't forget that not all tracks need to be the same average, either. So a loud piece followed by a quiet piece shouldn't be at the same peak level, it sounds wrong.

We produce lots of show tracks, and because the playback kit is very variable, we do record these hotter, just a bit, because with an audience, a quiet track may require a fader prod that can't be done - it's already up! -18dB might seem a bit low, but it does work, and is a kind of standard, just subject to a little genre +/-
Click to expand...

Thanks.

So for these imported tracks, keep the master fader 0 or slightly below, then on each channel a starting point would be -18db and/or somewhere in the green?

Maybe I need a headphone amp or update the audio driver. It seems very low.
 
I hope I say this right.

Do not worry about the total volume when mixing. Worry about the mix and making sure you have headroom for dynamics. If the volume is too low, turn up the volume on your output (not master fader). If the interface that you are mixing on is too low, yes maybe you need an amp.

Also, if you are mixing in headphones, you may find it doesn't transfer well when playing through speakers. Just FYI. Your first objective, mix and watch your headroom (to give the music dynamics), get that the way you like it, then you can push the volume up on the master fader as the last step, not the first.

There are lots of information about mixing on the board. Regardless of the sources, you are mixing.
 
Rob, don't confuse things. The -18dBFS target is for tracking and mixing and has nothing to do with final volume or dynamics. It's the digital equivalent of analog's 0dBVU.

4tracker, if the tracks you imported are peaking anywhere near 0dBFS (the top of the scale) you need to turn them down one way or another. There should be a way to turn the tracks down, what's called "clip gain" in Pro Tools. Lower the clip gain on each track so it averages around -18dBFS. Go even lower for percussive tracks.

If you don't have a scale on the meter you can figure it out with those peak numbers at the bottom.
 
-18dbfs is about half way up the meter.

You can set the channel faders anywhere you need to in order to balance the tracks the way you want. That's what mixing get is.

Depending on your version of cubase, you might have a trim (channel input volume) at the top of each channel strip. By default it is set to 0.0, just type in a positive number to add gain and a negative number to decrease gain .

When I get tracks for a mixing project, I almost always have to turn the channel gain down 6-10db To get the gain structure I like working with.
 
Thanks guys, I think I got the level issue. Would that ever change? Say the material was originally recorded digital, ADAT, etc instead of analog. Do the same principles, the -18db, apply?

Only thing I can't figure out is why it's so low...I must need a headphone amp. Say I do--the average listener will not have a headphone amp, so what can I do to raise volume for them if I dislike the sound of limiters?
 
what's so low? When any mixer is working with it's output at the optimum level then you adjust the monitors to be how you like them, and what is appropriate? Are you saying that at this level your system has too low an output for you to hear? Where are your headphones connected?. Not sure what your interface is, but you can set cubase up to have a proper monitor output if you have 4 outputs, and then they can be separate - or if you only have two, then you are more stuck. can you tell us how you have the system set up, this sounds like it could be why you are getting hung up trying to get a higher output?
 
After you mix, there is a second process called mastering that gets the level of the mix up to commercial levels.

Not to confused things, but the legal else don't need to peak at -18dbfs, they should average there. That would put the peaks of percussive things like drums up around -6dbfs, vocal peaks around during -12dbfs, distorted guitars around -14dbfs, etc...

Just like on an analog 4track, you wanted to shoot for 0dbvu on the meter, but the peaks could go above that. Same thing with the meters in cubase, you want the average sustained sound to fill up the bottom half of the meter, with the peaks bouncing around above that. As long as those peaks don't hit 0, you are ok.
 
rob aylestone said:
what's so low? When any mixer is working with it's output at the optimum level then you adjust the monitors to be how you like them, and what is appropriate? Are you saying that at this level your system has too low an output for you to hear? Where are your headphones connected?. Not sure what your interface is, but you can set cubase up to have a proper monitor output if you have 4 outputs, and then they can be separate - or if you only have two, then you are more stuck. can you tell us how you have the system set up, this sounds like it could be why you are getting hung up trying to get a higher output?
Click to expand...

The interface is a higher end focusrite. It has headphone/monitor outputs, but when I route cubase through it, I don't hear any sound, so I've been plugging the headphones into the PC sound card. I'll tinker with it more. It must be something to do with the drivers or the signal's route.
 
Farview said:
After you mix, there is a second process called mastering that gets the level of the mix up to commercial levels.

Not to confused things, but the legal else don't need to peak at -18dbfs, they should average there. That would put the peaks of percussive things like drums up around -6dbfs, vocal peaks around during -12dbfs, distorted guitars around -14dbfs, etc...

Just like on an analog 4track, you wanted to shoot for 0dbvu on the meter, but the peaks could go above that. Same thing with the meters in cubase, you want the average sustained sound to fill up the bottom half of the meter, with the peaks bouncing around above that. As long as those peaks don't hit 0, you are ok.
Click to expand...

Got it, thanks.
I also found a few great videos on youtube explaining it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top