Overcoming monitor budget limitations

[JeffF]

Hello,

I am setting up a home studio and am working with a tight budget. I only see monitors, in my price range, that go as low as 50Hz. (I have ordered the KRK Rokit Powered 4.)

Despite desirable features of the aforementioned model, its 50 (51 rated) Hz bottom leaves 30Hz in between the lowest audible range as unmonitored via such monitors.

A couple questions, please, as possible means to overcome this limitation:

Of note, my end-use in format played is MP3, CD downloaded from WAV files, and app streaming. (Even though providing free downloading of songs, I would like mixes that the average listener would not distinguish from a commercial studio for these end-use formats--as such skills become advanced, of course.)

If I initially mix down with phones, using Beyerdynamics DT770, and recheck bottom end with semi-open phones (AKG-K240, which I've ordered since I've read semi-open phones lessen sound pressure in cans), is it reasonable to assume that if my KRK speakers monitor check of my phone mix sounds sufficiently similar down to 50 Hz and everything on both phones sounded good down to 20 Hz, should I be able to trust the mixed 30Hz below my monitors?

Additionally of question, my new multitrack recorder has a wide-capacity built-in mixer that allows on the units' 3" screen visually seeing 20 to 20KHz sweeping for EQing. Would this be practical in seeing if the phones are possibly hyped or start low in dB level in the 20 to 50Hz range?

I nor my friends do not have a hi-fi home stereo or high quality car sound system, so burning a CD is not practical.

Thank you for your insights, JeffF.

 

[mjbphotos]

Visual (that 3" screen) is not really going to help you. It's too bad you didn't check here before ordering the KRKs. The 5" JBL LSR305 has a bit better low end - down to around 43Hz, which is like the low RE on a bass guitar, and I don't think those small KRKs are well-loved (but then again maybe the newer edition is better).
Of course if your mixing environment is not acoustically treated, low end mixing is a total crapshoot (and even can be with larger speakers with better low end).
You will have to 'learn' your monitors - that is figure out how your mixes translate to other systems. "High quality" is not needed on other systems, the average auto playback system or home CD player will at least give you an idea. Especially if you know how professional releases sound on those systems.

 

[garww]

Ya, I bought fones with a large flat aREA TO MIX BASS ON. i ONLY CARE ABOUT 50hZ TO 15KhZ, HOWEVER. fOR MYSELF, i SEE NO NEED TO PUNISH MY SELF, or, the neighbourhood with un-musical frequencies.

Run audio files with full range sweeps on all you reproduces and learn where the bumps are

Here is a freq plot on reasonably flat fones;

 

[ecc83]

The Rocket 4 is even worse than the '51' Hz spec suggests. Rather naughtily they give a frequency 'range' down to that figure, in fact the speaker is 10dB down at 51 Hz (one would expect a FAIR specification to be 3dB down) and being a ported design, the response will fall off a cliff below that.

But! What do you expect to be going on sub 50Hz, leave alone 30? The bulk and 'meat', heft if you will of 'pop' music is at 60Hz and few people have speaker systems or room that can do justice to much below that. 20Hz?!! Church organs usually go down to 32Hz and there is a handful in the world below that at 16Hz (I believe there is one, Oz? that goes down to 8Hz?) bottom key on a grand Joe is 27Hz but there is precious little fundamental.
Of course, ELECTRONIC instruments can generated any frequency you want but whether peeps have the speakers or the POWER to reproduce them is debatable?

I just checked my new K92 and there is plenty of level at 30Hz (at -6dBFS) but little at 20 although that could be a limitation of this laptop's soundcard.

Even if you had monitors that went sub 30Hz, chances are, where you sit you wouldn't hear it or if you did you would not hear 37Hz or 55Hz. Tis a crap shoot in a small room.

Dave.

 

[JeffF]

Hello Mike,

With sincere gratitude for this community's related feedback on general points, I do ask for thoughts on using phones for mixing between 20 to 50Hz, if the phones allows a mix as intended as heard on a burned CDs, played in car (as Mike suggested). Then I can find whether a worthwhile consistency can be obtained with the monitors at my living room workstation by using the phones to set them correctly.

Please follow members, you feedback on the above inquiry is mainly my concern though comments and advice like Mike's is thoughtful, useful and welcomed with thanks.

Of community notice, I did want to comment on what I can only consider a potential safety issue (related to sudden power loss) with the mentioned JBL LSR305 model as reported in consumer reviews at a well-known retailer. I will reply to posted email requests for the name of retailer; since I am a Newbie, I think it only fair to earn such trust and ethical to share this, as it was ethical, too, of the retailer to not discourage such comments despite perhaps hurting sales.

However, I do kindly ask that when the very first well-established forum member reviews those comments at that retailer's site, please reply to this thread as verified to save me time in further requests--please, as a mutual courtesy. It may just be a plug coming lose issue or an electrical issue; of point, since I cannot be sure, I have to presume it a safety issue until proven otherwise. Odd that safety was not the raised concerned by reviewers even though it was more than once described as a "power supply" issue?

Even so, if one choses to take an economics rather than safety prospective, to paraphrase one reviewer: Why bother mentioning the good points he or she found, when the monitors--as general termed rightly or not--have a power supply issue, which to me denotes safety as a potential concern. Maybe it is from my time as a electronics repair shop-safety advisor in the military during the Cold War period, or being raised by a construction worker who taught me safety first, but I have to presume a safety issue until it is proven otherwise if it has to do with an unaddressed power supply issue (loss of power). If I can contribute anything to this community, I would offer this as an example as how easily we overlook what is coming out of those outlets in the wall and the devices that operate on electricity. (I'll reply to reviewers' location request only for the next couple of weeks though will look continue to periodically there after for additional feedback on my primary inquiry for assistance since the best mix--I can creatively find of way to obtain with my budget--is essential to my end-goals. Essentially, I am asking does my creative approach in working through limitations appear practical?)

For Mike, if I can impose on you, Mike, what does the abbreviation "low RE" refer to, in regard to a bass signal that you mentioned? Am I missing a lot of instrumental sound production activity under 50Hz, for my end-use goals of free MP3; WAV file availability to burn a CD (optional but not so practical for users in this distribution platform); and streaming app play to be audible under 50Hz? If what's under 50Hz is audible in MP3 and streaming, I cannot let that go unmixed. Even though free of download of songs, I want to provide an well-mixed listening experience.

After mixing with phones, I will follow your suggestion of making use of even a nominal car sound system as worthwhile. If the primary phones, DT770's prove trustable 20 to 20KHz and the AKG K240 does not differ greatly in what I hear between 20-50+ Hz (with less sound pressure in the semi open backs though I just bought the K240's and not compared with known tracks well-mixed low end). I'll first use the phones' mix (if sounding as intended on a burned CD) to establish the acoustical positioning and dB High/Low electrical range adjustments of my monitors.

Dave made an interesting point on frequency ratings related to dB level; I may have closer to a 60Hz bottom.

Sincere thanks to Mike for his associated insights and to anyone who can further assist me with my central question listed again at the very top of this reply.

Most grateful for this community--JeffF.

 

[JeffF]

Thank you garww,

If I may respectfully ask, am I correct in understanding your opinion is whatever is that whatever is happening below 50Hz or above 15KHz is not essential to the listening experience of--pardon the phrasing--the garden variety or everyday common listener?

If so, do you cut off at those bottom/top points or let whatever is happening go on but not mix it, maybe just make sure it is dampened a bit rather than a rumblin' and a screechin' ?

Any feedback on what is reproduced in frequency range on MP3 or streaming apps?

Thank you kindly, JeffF.

 

[garww]

"Am I missing a lot of instrumental sound production activity under 50Hz",

Try getting your shit together : ) hhaha. Ya, old records often have 16Hz . How many cathedral organ records do you have ?

The other side of this is that ported boxes aren't big organ boxes. You want Acoustic Suspension boxes to do the low bass with lower distortions.

below 40Hz, you kinda have to be careful with calling it instrumentation, as it might more readily be effects

 

[JeffF]

Hello Dave,

I have seen recently specs on a monitor--I cannot recall of manufacturer--but they ethically showed the difference at variable dB ranges as what you stated KRK does not--unfortunate practice. At my intro knowledge level, it didn't occur to me that this is universal in effect; I thought it was by design to that one monitor listing dB reference to frequency limits, since I do not recall seeing it elsewhere in my reading many specs in this under $200 price range.

I had hoped the wide front port would disperse sound pressure and not create as much an acoustical issue.

Please tell me at least all those spiders didn't make that silk for the tweeters for nothing . . .

The company has a video that shows this generation of Rokits as flat, graphically shown flat, flat--bottom to top in its respective ranges at highest dB's; however, it may be dated since it does not include the Rokit 4 in this description along with the others in the series; obviously, this was done under strictly controlled acoustics. I presumed that, but I can see where others might not.

Even so, I'll contact the manufacturer: If likewise described of the Rokit 4, would this possibly provide me at least awareness of what ought to be heard balanced in reproduction as affected by the room acoustics, if I'm getting a good mix with Beyerdynamics DT770's?

Lastly, with a 4 condenser mic setup on drums, I am surmising but I may not be capturing as much low-end with this setup as compared to direct attachments.

Thank you for your frank insights, most welcomed with thanks--JeffF.

Thank you, JeffF.

 

[JeffF]

Message deleted. As a new user I am getting familiar with function. Not sure who received this as person intended.

 

[JeffF]

Message deleted. As a new user, I apologize for possibly sent to wrong party. I cannot see who it went to person intended.

 

[garww]

You might look at the specs for the KH120 monitor for distortions. They've already changed the way they put forth the distortion spec at least once, but it still one of the specs we don't see on cookie cutter monitors ( for good reason )

while you can mix level in the lows, 100Hz may all sound the same because the monitors distort so much

 

[JeffF]

Hello garww,

This pertains to what you colorfully and kindly encouraged of me to "get my sh** together" (in how I understand instrumental ranges) . . . I pondered your insights, bewildered at first as this is new to me. Then, I think I saw something for the first time in boarder concept . . . it could be pivotal for me, so thank you ahead of time for your patience though I can briefly test it, here.

To explain, I have an EQ "Cheat Sheet" chart as part of a training DVD instruction set but did not understand "ranges," perhaps the most basic related concept, until your post, if indeed I understand them. Let us see with just a few examples . . . then I'll importantly surmise why these lowest-end notes are not mixed in, which I ask you to confirm whether I grasp it.

With bass, Rumble is listed as between 20 to 40Hz, Bottom 60 to 80HZ, Boxiness up to 500Hz, and the rest of its range sections--based differing tonal qualities--are listed. With piano, 30 to 50Hz is listed as Pedal Noise; Bottom as 80 to 120Hz, Warmth 200 to 400Hz, and likewise further sectioned complete in tonal qualities in its range; Lastly, of example here, Kick at 60 to 80Hz is Thump, Boxiness up to 500Hz, Smack 2K to 4KHz, and further sectioned in tonal qualities through its range.

I didn't see that low-end instruments have their bottom portions (in their common low-end ranges) that are not unusable in quality, and, therefore, not needing pursued in adding to the mix. Correct?

(Are there mid-range instruments containing high/low end points that have less desirable qualities, even though clearly audible, or are only the lowest and highest end qualities of the audible range more unwelcomed by the human ear?)

Is the following correct, please? While Pedal Noise of a piano is said to be 30 to 50 Hz, the lowest octave goes down to 27.5Hz; this seems to suggest that while some of those first notes in the lowest octave exist on a keyboard, they are rarely used; perhaps because these lowest-end tones are outside (below) what is welcomed consistently by the ears for this instrument if audible. Is this basically correct overall?

Likewise for the bass with its lowest notes 20 to 40Hz, I surmise these may not be typically used and suggest a quality like Rumble as why so listed, which does not suggest a tone that is welcomed. Correct, or sometimes the lowest bass notes are occasionally used?

Is this why we need not be concerned with mixing in such tonal qualities, albeit perhaps rarely occurring not ordinarily perceivable cleanly, except with exceptional phones or an acoustically properly mixing room with high quality monitors?

To save you time, just a "yea or neigh" to whether I've got this right. Did you notice any points I misunderstood that I should be aware going forth? (If I carry forth misconceptions it can hinder other things understood, so thank you for your time on such points.)

Thank garww for your patience, JeffF.

 

[JeffF]

Hello Dave,

I did find on the KRK's company's products website the -10dB level for its 51Hz bottom. I do appreciate you pointing this out.

At -3dB what would estimate the bottom to be? At zero?

Thanks, JeffF.

 

[garww]

If we were a working studio, we would be prepared for these "noises" and strive to be faithful when needed. Depends on what you are doing, but music can be musical and enjoyable.

With the piano, 27 can be effective. But no, no point in dancing around down there/ Rumble in a stone grain mill and distant thunder. ya, it's common to filter the noises, or, not record the in the first place.

 

[mjbphotos]

Typo: low E on the bass is around 43 Hz. If you mix music with a bass that has a low B string, that will be down in the 33Hz range I believe.
Please post a link to the 'safety concern' on the JBLs. I've had mine for years with no issues.

On using headphones for the 'spatial' part of mixing (i.e. panning): if your listeners are primarily going to be using headphones or earbuds, that's fine, but if anyone is using speakers, then your mix is going to sound very different due to the fact that the ears hear a blend of left & right speakers, and you always run the rish of a phase issue unless you do a mono mix check, too.

 

[ecc83]

Hello Dave,

I did find on the KRK's company's products website the -10dB level for its 51Hz bottom. I do appreciate you pointing this out.

At -3dB what would estimate the bottom to be? At zero?

Thanks, JeffF.

Not sure what that last sentence means Jeff? You really cannot take much notice of speaker frequency responses unless done in very exacting way and in very controlled and know acoustic 'spaces' For instance, if you took a really good, really wideband monitor (the Courts e.g.) and put them in a totally anechoic space the LF response would fall off very rapidly below about 200Hz. No manfctr of 'popular' speakers is going to publish THAT curve!
So, what space DO we test them in? On a floor certainly but concrete? Wood/chipboard 1mtr over earth? Against a wall (good for bass, bad for regular response) In a corner? Great for bass, bloody awful for the response 'flatness'!

Then there is the power issue. I can't be arsed to look it all up but to get that R4's 50Hz response back to flat would need at least 3 times the midband power and even if the amp and voice coil could handle it I very much doubt that there is nearly enough cone displacement. (which doubles for every octave below system resonance iirc)

So, Garww is with it today! Much of what you hear from small speakers IS harmonics of the 50/60 Hz fundamental i.e. distortion.

Sorry JeffF, you just have to face the laws of physics. You are never going to get CLEAN sounds out of small boxes much below 60Hz and at anything like the original instrument volume and not under $1000 PER speaker. You could look at sub woofers but they's a can of acoustical worms as well.

There are very, very few monitors of 'domestic' size and cost that can reproduce a rock band at stage level and full spectrum. Size, both physical, watts wise and wallet matters!

Dave.

 

[garww]

They will still work, you just have to understand the weaknesses in speakers. My big boxes from 1970 are ported and I hear the bass step off the cliff around 45Hz. But with the 12" woofer, YoYo Ma and his Solo Bach sound effortless

 

[keith.rogers]

I'd mix on the monitors, whatever they are, first, then use your cans as one validation point. DT 770s are very nice (I have a pair) but they can give you a false bass sense IMO.

Do the best you can to treat the room, and listen, listen, listen to "reference tracks" on your monitors so you understand what the kind of material you are going to mix should sound like on them. Then do your best. There's a chance, of course, that there will be some very low content in your reference tracks that you aren't hearing, so get it wrong in your own mix, since you won't hear it there, either, but you can post those mixes up here and other places and ask for feedback.

What, genre(s) exactly, are you planning to record/mix?

 

[JeffF]

Hello Keith,

In treating the room, any thoughts on surrounding my workstation with 5' fold out dampening panels (that I intend to use recording drummers on mobile sites)? With the monitors in the living room, too many spots to address, otherwise, before using fine idea of reference tracks.

KRK, to match my R4 model, makes a 10" subwoofer that I might be able to pick up for used for $250, $400 new; however, without an apartment neighbor I'd have to operate these so low it may not be helpful. As I am on an entry level, I've never heard subwoofers used in mixing. Your thoughts on sound level for mixing and neighborliness?

I am learning from a Pro's created recording/mixing instructional DVD's. I intend to record and mix on latest Tascam 24 multitrack; no DAW, respectfully said of those who can work with such formatting.

Genres: I intend to record local musicians inexperienced in recording who play Bluegrass, Folk, Blues, Pop--in catching some regional flavorings near the foothills of the W.V. Appalachians.

Since a lot of these electric musicians may have low-quality small amps and instruments, in addition to amp mic'ing, I may seek to use Bosses' GT-1 and GT-1B (for creative modeling options not affordable otherwise) as direct inputs, with musicians monitoring on phones. For drums, a 4 mic (Rode NT1) drum setup, doing double duty serving vocals and amp mic'ing where possible.

I'll be recording in acoustically cramped, unmanageable spaces, so I anticipate surrounding the drummer with 5' fold-outs. I might bring along 2 or 3 Pig Noses for small amps that I can better sound shield if there is simply too much sound reflection. I want signals with the lest amount of bleed over and recorded with the flattest mics I can afford; I presume to record flat gives something of advantage in mixing with signals heard flat to later manipulate though it is dawning on me how much reproduction and acoustics can alter those best laid tracks--I didn't expect that would be a whole separate challenge, but I enjoy the creativity in finding opportunity suggested needed in overcoming obstacles.

Your general thoughts, please, on approaches as I see them among possible selection thus far: dampening approach (both workstation and drummer), subwoofers and neighborliness, direct input options with Bosses' cabinet/instrument modeling in series, and other points of insight?

If not asking too much, could you clarify the meaning of "false bass sense IMO"; I am not familiar with the acronym. By the way, are we talking about the DT770 Pro close backs, if so which ohm model 250 and 80 as I believe both are now available. Beyerdynamics make an isolation model that my sales rep has steered me away from for mixing. However, if I did not recently purchase a pair of AKG K240's semi-open backs (bought for vocalists, whose inexperienced in recording with phones may lead to not finding their pitch in closed backs, which I strongly anticipate), I may have like to have heard whether the DT770's full open backs, with escaping sound pressure might produce something closer in low-end reproduction.

Many thanks for your feedback given and forthcoming.

Also, special thanks to all who have helped me, via this first thread posted, gain a better insight on what is practical yet of quality--JeffF.

 

[cavedog101]

There is so much more information you will need that isn't listed in the "specs". Speaker manufacturers do NOT want you know what the boxes they are trying sell actually do. It's counter to their bottom line.

Speaker size has something to do with speaker response as long as it is coupled with efficiency, speaker extrusion, and power....oh yeah, and in an environment free of nodes and comb filtering.

If you're not doing Hip-hop, Rap, or Electronica, you'll NEVER need anything below 43hz......The thing is, and it has been mentioned already, the physics and the mechanics of reproducing a flat 43 hz is not something the average listener is going to be toting around with them.

And then there's the point you made about 'where' and 'what' and 'how' you're going to be capturing these recordings. There's no book in the world that's going to give you much insight as to what is going to happen in those venues with your setup. This is fly by the seat of one's pants. Recording live is the hardest thing there is to accomplish with any sort of quality and a few budget mics and "small cheap amps" strewn about isn't going to be the do-all fix-all without years of experience. But DOING IT is the only way to learn!!!