My mixes aren't sounding as loud and thick as professionally done songs?

Vamecx

Vamecx

New member
I've seemed to always have this problem, where on all frequency levels, my mixes just aren't at the same loudness and not as bright as professionally done songs. Now I'm not expecting to get as much quality as professionally done songs, but I just wish the loudness and, I guess you can say, thickness of the song was the same. For example, here's a remix I just did today:


Now if I were to play the original right after that one, or any song really, it would be probably 2x louder. It overall would just sound thicker. I use Ableton Live, and when I export the song, I usually will put it into Audacity to convert it to an MP3 from a WAV and to make sure it looks alright and everything's in check. What I'll usually get is a lot of, sort of "spikes" in the recording which seems like it's affecting the loudest part of the song, so I can't make it any louder than that without clipping. I'll usually zoom in real close and put that tiny spike down, and it's usually unnoticeable, but I'm sure that's not how the professionals are doing it. :P

And if I were to put the original in Audacity and look at it, you could see how it sort of looks a lot more filled up in comparison:


But if I were to go into the effects and hit amplify on my own track, I couldn't make it any louder without clipping. And you can kind of see on that picture (click on it for full size, by the way), how there's a lot of, sort of spikes in the recording that hit the clipping cap, I guess you can call it.

So my question is, how do I get rid of this problem in the DAW itself? I want my mixes to look sort of flat and leveled out. Thanks ahead! This is my first thread on this forum, I hope I did everything alright. :P
 
Lyndon Baldwin said:
Have you tried Normalisation, and then a touch of EQ if you need it?
Click to expand...
Yes, normalize is on while exporting. And if I EQ the master track a bit more, it might clip I think, and overall I am pretty amateur at EQ'ing. Playing it through the D.A.W. sounds a lot more lively than how it sounded exported.

Here are the options I have going on while I export:
yQ4xO.jpg
 
You have to separate two different ideas about volume. There's peak, which is the literal highest point, and there's RMS, a sort of average level that you hear as the "meat" of the sound. You have to sacrifice peak level to get more RMS without clipping. That could entail compressors, maximizers and limiters of various sorts.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
You have to separate two different ideas about volume. There's peak, which is the literal highest point, and there's RMS, a sort of average level that you hear as the "meat" of the sound. You have to sacrifice peak level to get more RMS without clipping. That could entail compressors, maximizers and limiters of various sorts.
Click to expand...
Yeah I think that's the problem, is there's too much random peaks that are just, sort of utterly pointless. And I guess I need more RMS? So, compressors, maximizers and limiters are what I should be looking into and learning?
 
OK Generally when I'm mixing, I try and get the master level to around 0db in the DAW, export as a wav and then cut silence/add fades and normalize in Audacity.
Here's a track that seems to hold it's own with the Manics ;)

I haven't made enough posts yet to be able to put links up lol
But if I point you to Facebook and search Bowline - the song Eighteen Months
 
Lyndon Baldwin said:
OK Generally when I'm mixing, I try and get the master level to around 0db in the DAW, export as a wav and then cut silence/add fades and normalize in Audacity.
Click to expand...

Forget normalising and eq. That's not what you're dealing with here.


Sief said:
What I'll usually get is a lot of, sort of "spikes" in the recording which seems like it's affecting the loudest part of the song, so I can't make it any louder than that without clipping.
Click to expand...

You're right, and BSG explained it. You have peaks which are reducing the overall volume of the song.

Say there was a flat wav with one peak 6db over the rest. If you eliminate that peak you can turn the rest up by 6db. :)


So, how?

Either
go into your multitrack and find the offending tracks.
Automate the volume to fix the problem.
Or
Slap a limiter on the master track.
 
When seeing this thread, this is what came to mind... the loudness war.. people sucking out dynamic range for volume. On top of that...are you trying to get your mix louder or the master? In DAW you should have all your mix levels in the rms range of around -10 DB. I think "if" this is your mix and not the master... you are having headroom problems. Your making things too loud. What you want to do is have a relatively quiet mix, then boost it on the master side. If your having problems with the master then I'm talking for no good reason. But if its the mix then I suggest using proper gain staging and utilizing headroom. It should give you the transient response and dynamic range it looks like your lacking. Which will make everything a lot smoother. I don't know for sure if it will get you the volume you want on the master side but it will certainly make the master better.
 
So my question is, how do I get rid of this problem in the DAW itself? I want my mixes to look sort of flat and leveled out. Thanks ahead! This is my first thread on this forum, I hope I did everything alright. :P
Click to expand...
You do not want your mixes to look flat and leveled out necessarily. That takes the dynamics out of your mix causing it to always be loud which in turn causes ear fatigue. You are probably recording too hot. Try tracking with your peaks at about -12dbFS and then turn up the volume/gain after you mix down to about -6dbFS. Export your mix as a stereo track and then hit it with a limiter raising the volume to about -0.1dbFS or -0.2dbFS if you want loud.
 
adiobox said:
When seeing this thread, this is what came to mind... the loudness war.. people sucking out dynamic range for volume. On top of that...are you trying to get your mix louder or the master? In DAW you should have all your mix levels in the rms range of around -10 DB. I think "if" this is your mix and not the master... you are having headroom problems. Your making things too loud. What you want to do is have a relatively quiet mix, then boost it on the master side. If your having problems with the master then I'm talking for no good reason. But if its the mix then I suggest using proper gain staging and utilizing headroom. It should give you the transient response and dynamic range it looks like your lacking. Which will make everything a lot smoother. I don't know for sure if it will get you the volume you want on the master side but it will certainly make the master better.
Click to expand...

+1

I always mix to around -12dbs (-10 peaks) and then master to 0db (with RMS of around -10 or -9 / I use Slate FG-X). I've gotten pretty natural but still loud results that way.

Consequently, I think my mixes are lacking the meat you'd hear in professional mixes (one sample that comes to mind is Fall Out Boy). I have really inexpensive monitors (m-audios) and shure 440 headphones to mix with.. both do not replicate low-end well. Getting the low-end meat right always takes a lot of effort.... Too much and it sounds muddy. I find myself pulling back and pushing forward with the HPFs on my tracks for hours to get it right.

Is there anything I can do to speed this process up and get the power / meat into my mixes quickly?
 
There's alot that goes into a loud master. It all starts with the mix. Taming transients gently along the way. First on the track if needed, then on any group busses( drum master for example) then on your 2 bus. Gentle compression can go a long way to enabling heavier limiting during the mastering phase. In addition, eqing is also important in this regard. Cutting unwanted or unnecessary freq in your individual tracks reduces the energy in the track, again enabling you to push it harder during mastering limiting. Keep workin!!
 
You need to limit the hell out of your Mix to get up to commercial RMS levels. I tend to go for an RMS average of around -10dB.

G
 
Elton123 said:
Cutting unwanted or unnecessary freq in your individual tracks reduces the energy in the track, again enabling you to push it harder during mastering limiting. Keep workin!!
Click to expand...
Yes, you will notice on very loud masters for example QOTSA and Foo Fighters newer stuff. The RMS average can go to as low as -6dB for these Masters! Silly I know. But how do they achieve this while still having punchy mixes?
They don't have much low end in their Mixes. Because the low end is what takes up most of the energy in a wave since the low end has longer wave lengths.
Also the recording quality is a BIG part of getting aloud Master. Start off with bad recordings, means the limiter will exagerate (or destroy) these bad recordings.

Good luck,
G
 
Thanks for the advice, everyone! It's hard to respond to everyone, but it all actually helped a lot. I re-did the mixing on the track, it's under the same URL, so if you play the track in the original post it should be new mixed version (with a few changed parts). I'm much happier with this mix.
 
Yep, I feel ya dude. Most mainstream stuff today is just smashed into a box-shape today...no dynamics or nice peaks at all. That's why it sounds so full all the time.
 
This old chestnut.

Mixes are not supposed to be loud. They are supposed to convey the song. Have you listened to your material at the same perceived loudness as the commercial one? When you match the level you may indeed find that your ears were tricked into thinking the commercial song was better as a result of it being louder. You may also find that your song indeed has more dynamic impact than the commercial one at equal loudness because at this point, your mix is not smashed into oblivion.

Wavelab has a cool feature where you can match the loudness of two different WAVs by way of analyzing one (in your case, your mix) and then applying that loudness profile to the other.

It's amazing how much opinions can change when this is done for accurate A/B comparison.

Cheers :)
 
you need to copy the track, and shift the second track 15-20ms. This will make it sound thick and full. Also will give you contrast left to right.
 
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