Multi band or other compression to even out cymbal performances?

Farview said:
You can use a normal compressor with a fast attack and a release that pumps with the tempo.

The big problem is that the cymbals you hit harder will still sound like you hit them harder, even if you make them the same volume.

If you smash the overheads with the compressor, however, it will take away the attack and you will be left with the 'bloom' of the cymbal. Some people like that and other people don't. It tends to work better when you have the cymbals farther back in the mix.
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I guess the only thing to really do is try it. Everyone has a certain ear and a lot will depend on what my ear wants to hear. So if i understand correctly, compression may keep the volume down from louder hits but the impact or force that I hit the cymbal with will still be apparent in relation to the softer hits. What this means is that it still might bug me and hence the need to re-record certain passages. The bloom I think was big in a lot of the 80's drum recordings where you have the prominent gated verbed snares and kick. I'm a huge fan of the 80's big fat verbed drum sounds. What do you guys think is going on with the crashes here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlhLYqbTISA . Does it sound like the hats and ride were probably mic'd separately by any chance? Because those crashes are barely audible and sound more like blooms as has been suggested.

Another solution I have read about for this sound is playing the whole kit but not hitting the crashes. This way i use the overheads to set the levels of my hats and ride and go back through playing only the crashes and splash/china where needed and give them their own volume so I can control as much of the crash as i want without impacting the levels of the hats/ride.
 
If you record seoarately, it can sometimes be hard to get it to sound like it was played together. I think you are just being anal about those few crashes, unless you are really limp wristed on most of the song and beat the crap out of the crash a few time, I doubt anyone but you would notice.
 
Kapo_Polenton said:
Another solution I have read about for this sound is playing the whole kit but not hitting the crashes. This way i use the overheads to set the levels of my hats and ride and go back through playing only the crashes and splash/china where needed and give them their own volume so I can control as much of the crash as i want without impacting the levels of the hats/ride.
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Terrible idea.
 
jonny deep said:
Is that because it messes with the performance or because you lose mic bleed (or a bit of both) or something else?
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Both. All of the above. If you want drums to sound like drums, record them like drums. Overheads aren't cymbal mics. They're overheads. They get everything. They are the reason a drum recording sounds like drums and not just a bunch individual pieces dropped into a mix.

I really wish people would stop trying to fumble-fuck their way through basic recording techniques. There's a reason musicians/engineers have been recording drum tracks with overheads and spot mics since day one - because it works. If you want drums, that's how it's done. People need to stop trying to reivnent the wheel. Stop trying to cheat your way through a mix. Get it right to begin with.
 
Greg_L said:
Both. All of the above. If you want drums to sound like drums, record them like drums. Overheads aren't cymbal mics. They're overheads. They get everything. They are the reason a drum recording sounds like drums and not just a bunch individual pieces dropped into a mix.

I really wish people would stop trying to fumble-fuck their way through basic recording techniques. There's a reason musicians/engineers have been recording drum tracks with overheads and spot mics since day one - because it works. If you want drums, that's how it's done. People need to stop trying to reivnent the wheel. Stop trying to cheat your way through a mix. Get it right to begin with.
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Exactly my point with my first post in this thread....in fact...wait. I'll be back in a second.
 
miroslav said:
You want some velocity differences in the hits, instead of always even.....but if they are that much off that it's bothersome, you may want to focus on your playing technique
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^^^^This^^^^

Everything else is just silly clown-fuckery (one of my favorite GregL phrases).:)
 
I mean, I get it if you're handed a bunch of poorly done tracks and have to make-do with it. It's a pain and you sometimes have to resort to some clownfuckery to make it work. I do get that. But fuck, if you're tracking the stuff yourself, do it right.
 
In my own OH mic experiments....I found that a small height/angle difference and adjustment in the crash cymbals relative to the OH mics is enough to make them go from rude to smooth.

Adjust the tilt or height or position of the cymbals a bit.....or move/angle the OH mics a bit differently.
Find the sweet spot, and then just focus on your playing and you won't have to "pull punches" as much when playing.
 
Or, you can mic a cow and copy and paste a goat.

(Inside joke. Believe me, it's fucking hilarious!!!! :D )
 
Naaa....but I seem to recall seeing something about "cows and 96k" recording in another thread around here. :D
 
I'm tracking drums myself and have all the time in the world I want (not necessarily all the skill though) so I can take my time and do as I want.. I do see the value in mic'ing ride/hats on their own track for level purposes but seeing as I only have 8 in, I'll stick with what I have. Also agree that drum replacement programs make everything sound like they were dropped into place. Even if you "humanize", everything is too perfectly in time. Looking at a performance, if it falls close enough to the timeline markers or metronome beat (human precision vs computer precision), to the human ear, it will be close enough and sound right. When it falls exactly where it should, it sounds cookie cutter to me. I recorded a few rough demo songs a few years back and the drums drove me insane. Hated the way they stuck out at the time but i had not bought enough mics or an interface with that many inputs yet.

On the flip side, I don't get why some of you are so negative towards alternate methods of recording. You are still getting the live drum set because the overheads are involved.. you are just tracking the crashes on their own so that you can balance the levels differently. Maybe not ideal, but a hell of a lot better than using sample crashes because you won't hit a cymbal the exact same way twice. I'd think your timing would have to be bang on here though and might prove more challenging when you go to town on accents between bell, china, splashes.
 
Kapo_Polenton said:
I'm tracking drums myself and have all the time in the world I want (not necessarily all the skill though) so I can take my time and do as I want.. I do see the value in mic'ing ride/hats on their own track for level purposes but seeing as I only have 8 in, I'll stick with what I have. Also agree that drum replacement programs make everything sound like they were dropped into place. Even if you "humanize", everything is too perfectly in time. Looking at a performance, if it falls close enough to the timeline markers or metronome beat (human precision vs computer precision), to the human ear, it will be close enough and sound right. When it falls exactly where it should, it sounds cookie cutter to me. I recorded a few rough demo songs a few years back and the drums drove me insane. Hated the way they stuck out at the time but i had not bought enough mics or an interface with that many inputs yet.

On the flip side, I don't get why some of you are so negative towards alternate methods of recording. You are still getting the live drum set because the overheads are involved.. you are just tracking the crashes on their own so that you can balance the levels differently. Maybe not ideal, but a hell of a lot better than using sample crashes because you won't hit a cymbal the exact same way twice. I'd think your timing would have to be bang on here though and might prove more challenging when you go to town on accents between bell, china, splashes.
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I'm negative towards "alternate methods" of recording in some cases because at this point, with what we already know, it's pointless to fight what actually works. We aren't in the 50s and 60s anymore. We aren't all collectively feeling our way around in this new world of multitrack recording. You're not breaking into some new frontier of music, you're trying to record acoustic drums. This shit has been done and perfected thousands of times over by people way better than all of us. Learn from them. Listen, it will take far less time to just set up your kit and overheads properly and record the whole kit at once - with better results - than it would do figure out the "best" way to record just the drums and cymbals separately. Seriously, that's just silly.

But hey, it's your stuff, knock yourself out.
 
Greg_L said:
Listen, it will take far less time to just set up your kit and overheads properly and record the whole kit at once - with better results - than it would do figure out the "best" way to record just the drums and cymbals separately.
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I agree.

There was one time awhile back that I tried that with my drummer, purely for experimentation...and while it does let you have totally anal control of the cymbals...it just sounded disconnected from the drum tracks.
Sorta like poorly replaced drums, where the samples don't quite gel with the rest of the kit.

You can change the cymbals for a different flavor....or reposition them to get the balance better....or adjust your OH mics to pick up the cymbals more equally.
Once you find the right setup, it will work for you all the time....otherwise, you end up using "alternate methods" and "fixing it in the mix" all the time.

Your choice.
 
miroslav said:
I agree.

There was one time awhile back that I tried that with my drummer, purely for experimentation...and while it does let you have totally anal control of the cymbals...it just sounded disconnected from the drum tracks.
Sorta like poorly replaced drums, where the samples don't quite gel with the rest of the kit.

You can change the cymbals for a different flavor....or reposition them to get the balance better....or adjust your OH mics to pick up the cymbals more equally.
Once you find the right setup, it will work for you all the time....otherwise, you end up using "alternate methods" and "fixing it in the mix" all the time.

Your choice.
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All good fellas, not saying I would do this myself as I see it being more trouble than it is worth or even than setting up additional mics... I was just interested in why you guys thought this way. Personally, I have set my overheads in stereo , each equal distance from the snare and hovering over more of the hats and ride rather than crashes. Obviously the mics being condensers, everything is picked up but i wanted more emphasis on the stick sound on hats and ride and am happier with the crashes off center of the mic. Trade off is there is a lot of snare crack involved but i also cover the cowbell nicely this way (hooked onto bass drum) so it works out. I'm listening to more drum isolation tracks on youtube and the hats really are not that prominent in the mix as I would have thought. It's all snare/kick for the 80's stuff it seems.
 
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