Monitor Speaker Position

GuitarLegend

New member
I couldn't believe the improvement in sound quality when I made the small change of pointing my monitor speakers (DB Technologies L160) towards me. They were in the right place, the right location but neatly parallel to the back wall.

While reading a manual on another speaker brand, the Adam A8X, they strongly recommended pointing the speakers toward the listener in an equilateral triangle configuration. I already had that configuratoin but I simply turned the speakers in. Amazing difference. I just never knew...
 
I'd not point them right at you... Try putting the convergence point about a yard behind your head. The imaging will probably hit you nicely.
 
I am willing to try what you say but Adam Audio says, "...The optimum listening position should be at the top of an imaginary equilateral triangle with the two loudspeakers placed at the other two points of this triangle..."

They also say, "...the loudspeakers should be aligned with the listener’s position..."

I can understand that. I am curious to know why a convergence point behind the listening position would be better?
 
I'm not sure what John had in mind, but for me the answer would be, because you don't sit as still as a mannequin when you're working on your music. People tend to lean in when working at the keyboard or mouse while staring at the audio software on the monitor, and while setting up their mix station. Then when it comes time to give a serious listen, they tend to lean back in their chair, with as much as a couple of feet of difference in the front/back position of their head. Often times, also, the increased distance tends to give the bass a little more "room" to mingle and develop (technically inaccurate, but effectively descriptive), making a deeper listening position more advantageous.

But IMHO don't worry too much about one or two degrees or a few inches either way. Like I say, your head is going to move around while you work by at least that much anyway. Just get everything within the right vicinity within a reasonable margin of error and you'll be OK.

IMHO, YMMV, CTA, MTA, AMTRAK, ETC.

G.
 
There's been all kinds of technical and subjective info on where/how to place your monitors...so there's some science invovled and also some "works best for me" stuff going on.

That said...
Once I get the equilateral triangle set, I toe in/turn in the speakers *about* 30° from their straight out, 90° position.

AFA the apex/point of the triangle, that is *roughly* where you sit, but not necessarily where you point the monitors. Depending on the size of the triangle, your sitting position will vary some. I my case, my monitors are about 5.5' appart, so my triangle is fairly large.
With my monitors at about 30°, they end up coming to a "point" at about 18" behind me, so I'm sitting inside the triangle somewhat.
What that does is to remove the in-your-face hype of the monitors, and you get a more balanced image than if they are pointing (you sitting at the triangle peak) right at you.
Of course, as Glen pointed out, no one sits frozen in one spot...so while I mix, I will spend most of my time in the position I mentoined about, but I will at times roll back toward the "peak" to get a different perspective, or sometimes really move in as I adjust my console....so there's no *exact single spot* where you MUST be.
 
Thanks for the replies, it's all very interesting. In my current setup I dont have a great deal of choice about where to actually place the speakers so they are 8' apart. If I make an equilateral triangle, then I am definitely inside that. I am looking around now and cant place them anywhere else. But I can point them anywhere I want to :)

My DB Technologies L160s are dual 5" speakers in each box. I cant say that I have actually missed having tweeters in these boxes but I am tempted to go that way just because...

I bought them initially as computer speakers. Maybe not their intention, they were being used by the music store for one of their keyboards. And I nabbed 'em... well, they were on special...
 
I was going to post a photograph of my setup but you would die laughing... to answer the question, there is just nowhere to put them unless I get stands specially for the purpose.
 
Well...stands are what a lot of folks end up using...or they build some sort of "over-bridge" that sits over your desk area.

It's just a bit too far, IMO to set small speakers. If you had large format studio monitors, that's one thing, as they would easily fill out the space...but with small speakers spread 8' apart, you kill your imaging, and just pointing them at you from that distance doesn't improve things as well as it could...
...but yeah, sometimes it's hard to get everything to fit where it should go.
 
What that does is to remove the in-your-face hype of the monitors, and you get a more balanced image than if they are pointing (you sitting at the triangle peak) right at you.
S'actly. Plus, think of that "expanding sound trapezoid" pushed forth by each speaker -- If the speaker is aimed "at your head" you're really getting too much "crosstalk" (too much left speaker in your right ear and vice-versa). I typically use the "looking straight down the close side of the speaker" as a starting point -- At the mix position, keeping your head perfectly still and centered, your left eye looks straight down the right side of the left speaker, your right eye looks straight down the left side of the right speaker.

You're still in the *speaker's* "sweet spots" but there is less clutter in front of your face. With very narrow dispersion / limited range / short throw speakers (most nearfields) that spot might be anywhere between "perfect" and "a bit too wide" (at which point you lean forward a bit and do the same thing while aiming, then lean back to the mix position to listen). With full range / standard dispersion / standard throw speakers, it may still be too narrow -- The theoretical convergence point on the speakers I'm using here is far beyond the rear wall -- Probably 40 feet back -- and it's wonderfully detailed with imaging that's hard to describe. And the transition is very smooth and consistent when moving from side to side.
 
Thanks for the detailed reply John, I hope I didnt sound out of place in asking but I really didnt know. I have had speakers pointing straight ahead for years and never really thought about it. Then when I turned them in, the improvement was incredible. Now there are degrees of turning in with good explanations for it. You learn things from angles you never thought about before... thanks again :)
 
with small speakers spread 8' apart, you kill your imaging
We've disagereed on this before, and as much as I hate to re-run yet another old disagreement (as you and I are prone to do ;)), this POV just doesn't add up for me.

A wide spread will spread out the stereo image way wide, but the image will still be there in correct proportion and location, as long as the speakers are equidistant from the listener.

An equilateral triangle may sound more "natural" than an extra-wide spread, but it has no effect on the ability to discern and manage the actual stereo image. As long as each speaker is the same distance from the listener, the stereophonic image will remain true, and there are no translation or perception issues to worry about.

Again, if you want independent proof, throw on a pair of headphones, which have a 180° spread. No problem with the stereo image there, other than the special instance of center sounding above you instead of in front of you.

And before someone chimes in about the other problems with headphones, go ahead and try an experiment; set your monitors straight to your left and right so there is no triangle. Make sure the speakers remain equidistant from your head, however. The stereo image is still there, with center pan still being in the center, half-pan left at about 45° left, etc.

G.
 
I would agree with that Glen, I was wondering why there was a problem with only 8' - it sounds good to me. But then if you wanted to be picky, the further away the speakers are, the more likely you are to pick up room reflections so there must be some optimum distance for near-field monitoring.
 
You'll have room reflections no matter what, really.

Don't get me wrong, I would not *recommend* putting ones speakers on a 180° angle or any wider than they have to, because somewhere in the 50-80° angle is perhaps the most natural-ish spread (and it's the angle that counts; 8' is not far apart if one is sitting 10' from the speakers), but if you have to go wider for some practical logistical reason, as long as you're not sticking them close to the walls, it won't kill you.

I have shown how we have our speakers spread in the garage studio before. They are way wider than, frankly, I would care to have them. But I've been overruled by the main owners, who are a bit infatuated with that window and insist not only that the engineering desk face the window, but that the monitors (video and audio) no block too much of the line of sight. So we're stuck working with an wider-than-textbook spread in the monitors:

p_studio0000.jpg


While I would not go so far as to recommend that one *purposely* do that, I can say that the spread has not really impeded either the quality, the speed or the comfort with which any of us have been able to do our jobs in any way worth mentioning, including hearing the proper stereo panning.

G.
 
We've disagereed on this before, and as much as I hate to re-run yet another old disagreement (as you and I are prone to do ;)), this POV just doesn't add up for me.

A wide spread will spread out the stereo image way wide, but the image will still be there in correct proportion and location, as long as the speakers are equidistant from the listener.

I didn't want to get into all this again too deeply, which is why I said in my last post that there is a certain amount of personal/subjective choice involved, but too late now... ;) ...so I don't agree that ANY distance/position/angle is OK as long as you're “equally in-between the speakers”.

These days most people have tiny little mixing areas thanks to computers and small work surfaces...so most end up sitting real close by necessity. If you spread speakers 8' apart and sit up close, like say only 2' away from their L-----R line...you end up with a hole in the center of your image.
Now I know you're suggesting that as long as you are midway between the speakers and they are toed- in far enough to aim at your ears it's going to be the same quality image as the way I suggest placing them (and the way a lot of folks do that I've come across reading up on speaker placement, including most monitor manufacturers). You’re actually the first person that I’ve ever come across that says angles and distances don’t matter all that much as long as you sit midway in-between them, so I respectfully disagree that it doesn’t matter how far apart they are or how much you toe them in relative to where you are sitting.
The imaging just sounds weird when speakers are far apart and toed-in real hard to compensate, especially noticeable in the imaginary center ….or just the opposite, when they are real close (like a lot of DAW users have them), because at those very short distances, even if you do the triangle, you end up with a very Mono-ish sound no matter what angles you chose for the toe-in.
I’m not saying 30° is absolute (like some folks say) and that you shouldn’t stray even one 1° in either direction…but I will say that 30° certainly is the best ballpark to shoot for, with only some slight adjustment for personal taste…otherwise anything more dramatic just screws up the center of the image.

I tried a LOT of speaker positions and angles over a good period of time, sometimes living with one setup for awhile and then going back and revisiting my choices and maybe making a small adjustment and giving that a try…and not just haphazardly, but spending a lot of time/effort measuring and checking angles and what not…and I discovered first hand that there are ranges/positions that work and then there are others that just sound odd…and that just sitting equidistant was not the only factor that mattered.


IMHO, YMMV, CTA, MTA, AMTRAK, ETC :)



And.....as I said this to you in the last thread (which I think was what got our debate going)...the position of the speakers in that picture looks very wrong *to me*. It's kinda' like listening with headphones but without the benefit of the headphone cups to block out any outside noise/space and allow the proper creation of the imaginary center.
With speakers spread off to the sides like that and you sitting in that close...well...it's just very odd and IMO screws up the center of the image. When they talk about an equilateral triangle it's not just about the sides being of equal length, it's also about the 3 angles of the triangle being of equal size....and that would be 60° each....not anything else. In your picture...the speaker position and listening position are nowhere near being an equilateral triangle.
It's probably not a big issue for monitoring during tracking or for basic edits...but I would not care to mix with that speaker position...and again...I'm only speaking about *me*, and not trying to lay down any absolute, though as I mentioned, just about every bit of info I ever read was more along the lines of how I place monitors, which is why/what I ended up following that info for my own setup...but I also confirmed it by trying out a lot of positions/angles/lengths and not just following someone's suggestions blindly.

So again…I suggest people check multiple sources of info, and then make their own personal decision based on what their studio space allows.
I do notice though that a lot of folks come up with a “works for me” setup simply because their room situation doesn’t allow anything else, as noted by the OP’s case….but that doesn’t validate anything AFA what’s best/better...when you are just forced to adjust to something else.
 
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It can depend on the speaker because they can have very different dispersal characteristics with certain parts of the freq range getting emphasis or suck outs depending on the positioning or direction.
Yes, most of the near fields in use among home recordists are fairly similar but not always.

Personally, I have always felt that if you seperate the speakers too much ..... i.e. 8' with some small mini monitors ...... you get a 'hole' in the middle as far as imaging goes. Yes ..... center panned things are still in the center and left and right are still left and right ...... but the fact that there are two seperate left and right signals becomes more obvious ...... kinda like some speakers draw attention to the fact that the sound is coming out of that speaker over there as opposed to some speakers 'disappearing' so to speak.


And I also way prefer aiming the speakers behind where I sit.
I usually go equlateral triangle and then sit a bit closer than the triangal would dictate.
 
And I also way prefer aiming the speakers behind where I sit.
I usually go equlateral triangle and then sit a bit closer than the triangal would dictate.

Same here. I sit a little inside the top corner of the triangle.

Another thing to think about is the height of the speakers. I don't know what's exactly right, but mine sit a little higher than halfway to the ceiling. I think this might help with cancelling some reflections off the ceiling and floor. If I sit up straight, which isn't very often, my sexy ears line up between the woofer and tweeter.
 
I sit a little inside the top corner of the triangle.

I thought you sit behind the snare drum? ;)

Another thing to think about is the height of the speakers. I don't know what's exactly right, but mine sit a little higher than halfway to the ceiling. I think this might help with cancelling some reflections off the ceiling and floor. If I sit up straight, which isn't very often, my sexy ears line up between the woofer and tweeter.

Yes...that's about how mine are, and often the recommended height for nearfields.
 
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