Mixing OTB Analog or Digital or Digital with Analog summing mixer?

S

stevelogik

New member
Hello! I'm investing in a mixer and am having a hard time trying to decide between going the analog mixer route, buying a digital mixer and using a summing mixer to add that analog mixer warmth to stems, or just using a digital mixer with vintage warmer plugins on each channel to replicate the analog mixer sound. I also want to do mixing outside of the box (OTB). As my DAW I'm running Ableton live. I also have a question about implementing a summing mixer and where it is placed within the setup. Below are the three scenerios I'm considering which all fall within my budget.

Scenerio 1:

RME FF 802 Audio Interface in which I plug my instruments into that then go to Ableton Live. I then route the outputs inside Ableton out to my analog mixer, which then go back into Ableton so that I'm doing the mixing portion OTB. My question for this setup is do I need a Digital to Analog converter for the audio out to the analog mixer and then an analog to digital converter for going back into Ableton? For my Mixer I would buy the A & H WZ4 16:2

Soundcard -> Ableton -> D/A Converter -> Analog Mixer -> A/D Converter -> Ableton

Scenerio 2:

I would buy an A & H Qu 16 which also has an audio interface built in. I'd buy 1/6" Y cables to split the inputs of 2 channels for analog summing on selected stems. I'd have all 16 channels setup in Ableton but I'd reroute the audio from stems on an as needed basis. So the stem channels would go from Ableton out through the Analog Summing Mixer and then back into my mixer which would then be recorded into Ableton after being summed from the summing mixer. What would be a setup to do analog summing with an A & H Qu 16? I'd be trying to accomplish a hybrid digital & analog setup to have the best of both worlds. Having the Y cables inplemented also allow me to use all 16 channels without summing when I'm not using the analog summing mixer.

Instruments would be plugged into the mixer and I'm considering the following setup:

Qu 16 -> Ableton -> D/A Converter -> Analog Summing Mixer -> A/D Converter -> Qu 16 -> Ableton

Scenerio 3:

Using an A & H Qu 16 without a summing mixer but applying a vintage warmer plugin like the PHP Vintage Warmer to each channel to simplify the setup.

With the first two options are the converters needed? Also is the setup correct? If not what would be a correct setup? Are there any other suggestions on how I could do this? I'd like to find the best way to mix out of the box. Any help is appreciated!
 
What would be the point of a digital mixer in tandem with a DAW...?
Just mix ITB or run stems to an analog box or run individual tracks to an analog mixer (or summing box)... the second two depend on the number of D/A channels you have.

I track to tape...dump to DAW...do my edits/comps/spot processing in the DAW...then I run 24 channels out of the DAW (I have 24 A/D/A converter channels) to my analog console to mix...otherwise I would just mix ITB. Not really buying the summing box thing...prefer the console for it's routing options during mixdown, plus I'm using the full channel strips, not just a summing circuit....but YMMV on that, since a console worthy of mixing through will cost more and take up more room which is why so many opt for summing boxes, but I think they are bit more hype than value, though there are some really high-end ones (I've not tried a bunch to have an objective opinion on their sound).
 
miroslav said:
What would be the point of a digital mixer in tandem with a DAW...?
Just mix ITB or run stems to an analog box or run individual tracks to an analog mixer (or summing box)... the second two depend on the number of D/A channels you have.

I track to tape...dump to DAW...do my edits/comps/spot processing in the DAW...then I run 24 channels out of the DAW (I have 24 A/D/A converter channels) to my analog console to mix...otherwise I would just mix ITB. Not really buying the summing box thing...prefer the console for it's routing options during mixdown, plus I'm using the full channel strips, not just a summing circuit....but YMMV on that, since a console worthy of mixing through will cost more and take up more room which is why so many opt for summing boxes, but I think they are bit more hype than value, though there are some really high-end ones (I've not tried a bunch to have an objective opinion on their sound).
Click to expand...

The Qu has a lot of powerful features for mixing & EQing that is more powerful than Ableton by itself. Also motorized faders, FX, etc. What you said made me second guess going digital, what is your opinion of the Allen & Heath WZ4 series as an analog mixer?
 
Well...I don't know Abelton limitations...I use a different DAW app, and with all the included plugs, plus all the add-on plugs and apps...there's way more options than a digital mixer, including automation...so I would rather mix ITB or go to an analog console if I wanted to mix OTB.

I guess it's how you prefer to work and what makes the most sense to you.
I'm not able to give any opinion on the A&H..though in general, their stuff is pretty good...but at a glance, I wouldn't think that mixer is going to give you much in the way of any analog "mojo", if that's your main goal.
Their GS series mixers would be more in line with that...but of course, more coin.

GS SERIES - Allen & Heath
 
miroslav said:
Well...I don't know Abelton limitations...I use a different DAW app, and with all the included plugs, plus all the add-on plugs and apps...there's way more options than a digital mixer, including automation...so I would rather mix ITB or go to an analog console if I wanted to mix OTB.

I guess it's how you prefer to work and what makes the most sense to you.
I'm not able to give any opinion on the A&H..though in general, their stuff is pretty good...but at a glance, I wouldn't think that mixer is going to give you much in the way of any analog "mojo", if that's your main goal.
Their GS series mixers would be more in line with that...but of course, more coin.

GS SERIES - Allen & Heath
Click to expand...

A cool thing about the Qu 16, as long as you have a mac, is that it has DAW control. It'd sync up with Ableton. It also has motorized faders with presets I could use for multiple projects. But you have a good point with the analog mojo. I was looking at the GL 2400 but more inputs than I need of course.
 
stevelogik said:
Hello! I'm investing in a mixer and am having a hard time trying to decide between going the analog mixer route, buying a digital mixer and using a summing mixer to add that analog mixer warmth to stems, or just using a digital mixer with vintage warmer plugins on each channel to replicate the analog mixer sound. I also want to do mixing outside of the box (OTB). As my DAW I'm running Ableton live. I also have a question about implementing a summing mixer and where it is placed within the setup. Below are the three scenerios I'm considering which all fall within my budget.
Click to expand...
You need to clarify weather you are actually looking at a digital mixer or a DAW controller. 2 different things. An SSL C300 is a digital mixer. A Neve 88D is a digital mixer. They have actual DSP that processes audio, whereas an Avid S6 or a Yamaha Nudge is a daw controller only. An oversized mouse. There are Hybrids like a C24 or an SSL Duality. They have DAW control, but DSP and summing at the same time.
Scenerio 1:

RME FF 802 Audio Interface in which I plug my instruments into that then go to Ableton Live. I then route the outputs inside Ableton out to my analog mixer, which then go back into Ableton so that I'm doing the mixing portion OTB. My question for this setup is do I need a Digital to Analog converter for the audio out to the analog mixer and then an analog to digital converter for going back into Ableton? For my Mixer I would buy the A & H WZ4 16:2
Click to expand...
First of all, that WZ4 is the worst choice you could possibly consider for summing. Don't do it. Downright terrible choice.

But yes, your chain would be Inst -> RME in -> Daw -> RME out -> Mixer in -> Mixer out -> RME in -> Daw.

Scenerio 2:

I would buy an A & H Qu 16 which also has an audio interface built in. I'd buy 1/6" Y cables to split the inputs of 2 channels for analog summing on selected stems. I'd have all 16 channels setup in Ableton but I'd reroute the audio from stems on an as needed basis. So the stem channels would go from Ableton out through the Analog Summing Mixer and then back into my mixer which would then be recorded into Ableton after being summed from the summing mixer. What would be a setup to do analog summing with an A & H Qu 16? I'd be trying to accomplish a hybrid digital & analog setup to have the best of both worlds. Having the Y cables inplemented also allow me to use all 16 channels without summing when I'm not using the analog summing mixer.
Click to expand...
The Qu 16 is not an analog board. No summing there. Even if you wanted to couple the Qu16 with a summing box so you would actually have summing, you don't even have enough output channels to do it correctly. You would have to buy a Dante network box, feed it with Cat 5, pipe 16 channels through the Dante network, convert it, send those to the summing mix, then return the summed signal to your DAW. Total clusterF--k. Don't do it.
Using an A & H Qu 16 without a summing mixer but applying a vintage warmer plugin like the PHP Vintage Warmer to each channel to simplify the setup.
Click to expand...
What!!?? Are you talking about the PSP vintagewarmer2? You don't use the vintage warmer on each channel. That's what the mircowarmer is for. And that would make a mess. These things are bus limiters. Only use it on a channel if you have to, and use them sparingly. They're very aggressive and make a giant mess.
With the first two options are the converters needed?
Click to expand...
Of course. You can't print unless you return the summed signal to your daw.
Also is the setup correct?
Click to expand...
No. None of them are.
If not what would be a correct setup? Are there any other suggestions on how I could do this? I'd like to find the best way to mix out of the box. Any help is appreciated!
Click to expand...

You're making this way to hard on yourself. Get a used dangerous 2 bus LT. $900 bucks on Ebay or GC. If you can't hear a difference with that, you're not ready for one. You can not sum with a mackie, behringer, allen heath etc...consumer level mixers will damage your tracks more than they'll help them. 'Vintage' junk like Tascams and old Yamahas don't do shit either. Summing boxes are clean, have enormous headroom, and minimal gain staging. Black Lion makes one, but the Dangerous is the same price and has 16 channels. Phoenix, Cranesong, Manley, Neve, API...yeah they make summing mixers too. But the Dangerous is the cheapest summing box that will actually give you a meaningful result.

Your setup would be RME -> 2 Bus. 2 Bus -> RME.
 
stevelogik said:
The Qu has a lot of powerful features for mixing & EQing that is more powerful than Ableton by itself. Also motorized faders, FX, etc. What you said made me second guess going digital, what is your opinion of the Allen & Heath WZ4 series as an analog mixer?
Click to expand...

Whoever told you that is lying through their teeth to sell you one. Its the other way around. The FX in that board are worthless in a non-broadcast studio environment. I've had plenty of hours on their flagship boards and have installed my fair share of those things in theater and church settings. They're half decent for those settings, but they're not going to give you anything Ableton and a simple UAD bundle won't.
 
Just to give an update. Yeah I wasn't impressed with the FX on the Qu, but primarily I want to mix outside of the box. Being that I can't afford a quality analog mixer I decided to go with the Qu for primarily to use for mixing outside of the box. It syncs up nice via midi over usb with Logic and Ableton, in which I can use DAW Control. It also has a sound card built in which is nice. With 10 mix buses, motorized faders, and the parametric EQ; it's a pretty nice device for those reasons listed I think. Yes the FX aren't that great as I found out but I believe for what I mentioned it's worth the buy given my budget. Since I can't do proper summing with it I bought a Roland Boss KM-60 to run my drum machines through before it hits the Qu 16. I have hardware compressors, mono and stereo as well as hardware reverb so I don't need the FX in the Qu. Eventually I'll buy the RME and dangerous box so I can do actual summing; I could run the 10 mix outputs from the QU into the RME to Summing box from summing box and back to the RME to record into Ableton as you mentioned.
 
jkuehlin said:
There isn't. He's confused.
Click to expand...

Not confused. The Qu is a digital mixer that also has a soundcard. I'd have my DAW setup recording from the Qu's built in soundcard in which I can also do mixing from within the Qu. The Qu also has DAW Control where it syncs up with your DAW so that what your doing on the Qu is in sync with your DAW via volume faders, mute, etc.
 
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