Mixing a live show... using a daw.

S

Spazhands

'ere mate
Well almost. I am a live sound engineer at my local venue and I have been tasked with mixing an outside show for a small festival. I am limited to certain outboard gear, which doesn't consist of any effects units.
. I will be using a Yamaha mg24 desk, so analogue.
. Here is my plan, I would like some compression, gate, eq and other such things at my disposal. So I was thinking about using my recording rig with reaper for this. I have an emu 1820m and could use the effects within reaper as inserts on certain channels eg kick, vocals etc. I have a maximum of 6 "inserts". I have done the routing at home and seems viable. Can anyone see any issues with doing this besides the reliability.. But then I could just pull the insert cables from the channels should the pc throw a wobble. I have used this system for recording for years and it only froze up once.

What do ya think?
 
Spazhands said:
Well almost. I am a live sound engineer at my local venue and I have been tasked with mixing an outside show for a small festival. I am limited to certain outboard gear, which doesn't consist of any effects units.
. I will be using a Yamaha mg24 desk, so analogue.
. Here is my plan, I would like some compression, gate, eq and other such things at my disposal. So I was thinking about using my recording rig with reaper for this. I have an emu 1820m and could use the effects within reaper as inserts on certain channels eg kick, vocals etc. I have a maximum of 6 "inserts". I have done the routing at home and seems viable. Can anyone see any issues with doing this besides the reliability.. But then I could just pull the insert cables from the channels should the pc throw a wobble. I have used this system for recording for years and it only froze up once.

What do ya think?
Click to expand...

I would go for it, given that you have a neat contingency in place. I would be more nervous if you were using the PC to do all the mixing, rather than just for adding effects.
 
Yes mixing a live show. I would basically be using the pc as multiple inserts. I wouldn't be mixing on the pc as such as all effects will be sent back to the fader and I can just pull the insert cables on each channel should it go pear. Are inserts generally pre aux send? So the inserted effects will be applied to monitors if using the aux sends to feed them?
My reliable latency is 8ms so that shouldn't cause a problem.
 
If I understand you correctly, you really will need to have your buffers set to like 64 and your converters really need to be first class. Not the ones sub $1000 types. You get the right AD/DA converters and I think you will have no problems. Using the inserts would work, sounds to me, you are just using the computer for effects, not really mixing. Your biggest issue would be the round trip for the sound.
 
Yes correct. The converters are 'mastering grade' same as used in some m audio stuff, I will check which ones are used. I jave set up a mock session in reaper and in my patchmix.. Seems to work spot on.
Thinking about it I could even just use the patchmix for the effects without reaper as that has zero latency monitoring being a pci based dsp... In fact that sounds like a good plan.
 
Spazhands said:
Thinking about it I could even just use the patchmix for the effects without reaper as that has zero latency monitoring being a pci based dsp... In fact that sounds like a good plan.
Click to expand...

There's no such thing as zero latency DSP though it can be quite low. I would think using your PC as a reverb unit would be fine since a bit of latency will (hopefully) be a lot less the the predelay in the effect and a failure won't stop the show. But I'd be nervous about using the PC for inserted compressors especially if it's inserted on some channels and not others. Surely you can live without channel compressors for one gig. I've probably mixed a hundred gigs without compression.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
There's no such thing as zero latency DSP though it can be quite low. I would think using your PC as a reverb unit would be fine since a bit of latency will (hopefully) be a lot less the the predelay in the effect and a failure won't stop the show. But I'd be nervous about using the PC for inserted compressors especially if it's inserted on some channels and not others. Surely you can live without channel compressors for one gig. I've probably mixed a hundred gigs without compression.
Click to expand...
That, and are you going to be isolated from the live room?
Seems like a lot to bite off- unless you get to go through the process a few times..?
 
Reverbs and delays will be fine. I really wouldn't try to insert a compressor plugin on anything, especially drums. My converters are 6ms round trip, without the latency of a plugin. Putting a compressor on a kick and not the rest of the kick will easily get the latency to 15-20ms, which is more than enough to change the feel of what he is playing.

If you feed that signal back to the drummer's monitors, it will really screw him up.
 
mixsit said:
That, and are you going to be isolated from the live room?
Seems like a lot to bite off- unless you get to go through the process a few times..?
Click to expand...

Its a live outdoor show ;). I dont usually use compression on channels when doing live stuff but due to anticipation of bad mic technique from inexperienced artists and the possibility of wind screwing with things i feel having a gate etc at my disposal could be handy. The pci system has zero latency hardware monitoring and you can insert effects on the channel strips so in theory if I don't go through reaper it should be very direct as i wont be using any plugins at all. As I said I can always pull the insert cables should anything go wrong on the pc side. Is there any way of measuring the latency of my interface/ converters?
 
You are over complicating this. Your desk has a couple of fx sends, which if you want to use the computer for reverbs, I'd go for. The reality is that the critical elements are monitor sends - and I'd simply scrub the gates and compressors. If budgets are tight and you're having to scale back the PA, then faffing around with gates and compressors may not er, match the talent on stage? Any latency on your gating will also delay the snare - meaning it's detectable - because you will hear the direct snare, followed by the gated snare in the PA - fine in the studio, because you rarely hear the original, but even a modest amount of latency is going to give you a thickened sound, if not a proper dud-duh sound. You'd be better off just collecting/borrowing a cheap reverb unit and staying analogue. Unless you have tons of changeover time and sound check time, slapping compressors willy-nilly onto a band you haven't had time with always produces a rotten sound anyway.

I'd be perfectly happy doing the event on the mixer, and one or two reverbs - either outboard analogue, or via the computer. I personally would dump the compressors, and perhaps do any gain riding on the faders for the vocals and solos. Very often, unless the PA is super, compression should really be re-labelled as "add mud", as it rarely improves sound on a basic PA, with less than excellent instruments.
 
Ok, I see what you are saying there and completely understand. I have a Tc electronics M-one dual effects unit that I may use as my main reverb for lead vox. I have one band who I am very familiar with, who have 2 main vox,a synth and a keyboard which he always wants mountains of reverb on. So maybe use the pc for keys and anything else extra that requires reverb. I will have a play at the next show at my local venue and see how it goes. Cheers for the advice guys
 
I've used computers for live stuff for years now, and they're always a pain. Not really sure why, but the mains supply seems the real issue, especially with loads of lighting. I've just run 80+shows with audio from a mac - multi-track stuff, with a hot spare running in sync, and loads of times the damn thing would either freeze or skip a track. Tracked down to the bass amp in the band. He switched it off for two numbers, and then when he turned it back on, somehow, back at the desk, the MIDI controlled go button misbehaved. Took ages to find the fault. Using a front of house mixer with a computer doing effects will be totally fine when it's working. It's just those frantic hangovers when somebody pulls the wrong plug - stupid stuff like that.

99% of the time it will be fine. If doing reverb duty for the number two task, then a failure isn't mega-critical.
 
Ah good to hear from someone reliant upon computers in the live arena. I have an ac conditioner which could be very useful for preventing what you have just mentioned... Its always the damn bassist!
 
My question- to bring this up again, is are you then a) doing the sound (mix 1) b) while doing a direct-to-two track recording (mix 2), and in a condition where you can also not actually hear your recording mix very well over the live bleed, on top of that quick and appropriately applied comps, gates ect?
Just the one band BTW?

..So just to jump ahead here :) Yamaha mg24... How about barrow/rent a multi track a/d, use the available four groups, aux sends and/or ch insert outs to track channels and or sub mix/stems?
Still leaves the option to capture the live two-mix as well.
 
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Hi. No recording will be taking place at all. It I just to live mix the show, there will be 7 bands in total. I tried this method on Sunday night at my local venue for an open mic night. I put the cpu 'inserts' on vocals and acoustic guitars and it worked flawlessly, it was mainly reverb (altiverb) and some eq. All went brillantly until a stage monitor three a wobbly and went short... It got VERY loud very quickly :/. Another one for the repair bench then!
 
I've done this with Pro Tools HD Native and my HD I/O 16, and also PTHD with a 002R - all via inserts on the analog console, stabbed to my I/O

It works pretty well....

On another note, if you aren't familiar, Waves makes MultiRack - which is specifically designed for this purpose, and is a bit more stable than using a DAW. It will also let you interface directly with digital boards via digital cable if you are ever in that situation.

If you do a lot of this, it is definitely worth investing in... and Waves makes some stellar plugs. C6 is GREAT for vocal work live. Insanely awesome. period.

They are currently including MR free with the purchase of Tracks Live for a limited time - $99 total
Tracks Live – Multitrack Recording Software | Waves

Tracks is meant for live recording (not a DAW)... and it is separate from MultiRack - but for what you are trying to do, I'd say strongly consider it... at least look into it.
 
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