mixing drums - overheads out of phase?

E

earworm

New member
ok i noticed that sometimes if i put my overheads out of phase i get more bottom end in my snare,
is this normal or does that mean that i "did something wrong",

i mostly use a coincident XY pair, two Oktava MK012's on a stereo bar above the drummers head or shoulders, pretty much right above the snare

i try not to have TOO much cymbals in the overheads, i prefer to get a nice level on the entire kit, which isn't always easy,

anyway,

is there a rule of thumb for Phase issues when you work with overheads and the rest of the kit? ....as far as i know it might be normal since the OH mics are like one meter further away than the snare mic....
 
Within a certain area, there's always going to be *some* phase issues with mici'ing up a kit. Where you have the mics on that particular recording, it's the snare. Move them four inches higher, it might be the floor tom. Three inches to the left, something else. That's just why mic placement is so crucial. And it's not illegal to invert those two channels if you need to - But keep in mind that you're "moving" the issue - If it's moved to somewhere it isn't noticed, that's fine.
 
Generally, it is easiest to place the over-all phase relation by how much low end you get.

Just because the LOW END is in phase now, doesn't mean, you did ANYTHING to the higher frequencies that would make any difference.

Try filtering 2KHz and below on the overhead, then flip the phase? Any difference? Was it a "good" difference?

Since I use my overheads for mostly cymbals, that check tells me what I need to know.

Occasionally, I will want the more "mixed" effect of full range overheads. Then, of course, the low end may be an issue. It may not.

I think you really need to consider what your audio NEEDS, and not what is "proper". There are times where a snare sounds "better" when the overheads are "technically" out of phase in the low end.

Overall though, you will probably have a smoother sound on your overheads if you use the low end to determine in/out of phase. But, I would be looking for phasey sounding cymbals when you do that. IF the cymbals sound phasey, then forget the bottom end and do the phase so that the cymbals sound right. Phasey sounding cymbals sounds like crap. You can always beef up the snare bottom end with the close up mic.
 
The only rule of thumb you'll probably hear alot is the 3:1 rule.

And yeah, it's a proven "thumb", but it's all about your ears, man.

Sometimes some people go for that out of phase sound.

Whatever tickles the pickle. :cool:
 
drums and phasing can be quite an issue. XY at least helps reduce phasing as far as the overheads are concerned but of course combined with the other mics problems ensue. First off get your drums as far away from the walls as you can. Get the overheads as far away from the ceiling as you can. That's why studios advertise their space as large with high ceilings. Remeber mics respond differently off axis than on axis (generally) which can become quite an issue with lots of drum mics. Position mics so other parts of the drum are in the pick-up pattern's null point(s), i.e. position a tom mic for example so the snare is in the null point of the cardiod pattern. Also gating mics on drums can help reduce phase and bleed issues.

love both and tender and rough,
sweetnubs
 
thanks for the info,

indeed, i follow my ears, if it sounds good it is good (cfr Joemeek ;))

on one of the demo cds i was mixing i really noticed that there was more bottom end in the snare (or drums in general but definately the snare) when i put the cymbals out of phase...
on other records i just couldn't hear a big difference...
and yep, sometimes i want more bass in the snare, sometimes i want nothing in it...

and interesting that "you" say that the drums shouldn't be too close to the walls, i never had the choise, in my tiny bedroom, i had drums in a corner....
but now i've spent alot of time moving fourniture out of my room so i can allmost put them where i want


so where is the PERFECT spot to put drums so i get that COMMERCIAL SOUND ? :D

right in the middle of the room? with the kick-hole looking at a wall or at a corner?

and to make up for putting my drums in a corner: i also put one basstrap in that corner...hehe...for now...
 
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