Metering in digital domain

I think there was some snipping earlier...from a few sides.
I mean, I saw all the posts that gecko zzed had to delete, yours, his, etc...but why don't we all just move on from that.
Let's not re-stir a new debate about who was arguing with who. :)

This is still a good topic, and some solid on-topic info here.
There were/are some strong views...people get passionate and caught up in the moment.
I think everyone did it to some extent.

Good advice, im just as much to blame but lets move on like you said.
 
Maybe im not doing it right on the front end but ill use the PFL on the channel and set the gain to peak between 0 and +3, then will adjust the pre on my converter to peak around -12 to -6 in the DAW. I dont like the pres on my converters so they are generally set very low. I get a very nice clean signal and go with it. Does this sound like a good start?

"PFL on the channel"....maybe you mentioned it earlier....but are you then going through a mixer pre, before the pre on the converter...???

What is your chain....mic to DAW?
 
"PFL on the channel"....maybe you mentioned it earlier....but are you then going through a mixer pre, before the pre on the converter...???

What is your chain....mic to DAW?

When at home demoing some guitar tracks ill run my guitar to a Pod XT then to lets say channel 1 of my Allen & Heath, then check the gain with the PFL and get it to the 0 to +3 on the meter, then use a quarter inch chord from the direct out of that channel to the converter and usually i can keep the converters pre very low, just low enough to peak in my DAW at no more than -12. Ill also use the sonalksis free g to check peak and RMS levels. It sounds very clean without any noticeable hum or hiss. If im not doing this right could you give mean example of how you would set this up. If it helps i can post a link to a guitar track sample recorded this way.
 
What's the reason for the A&H board in the chain...monitoring?
Can you monitor the input right off the pre/converter?

What is your chain when you are using a mic...?
 
What's the reason for the A&H board in the chain...monitoring?
Can you monitor the input right off the pre/converter?

What is your chain when you are using a mic...?

I do monitor through the converters. Im using Behringer ada8000 converters so i just figured that id get better results from the pres in the A&H board. I use the same chain when using mics without the pod though. Also the A&H has a pretty decent eq with sweepable high and low mids and sweepable high frequencies just to get a little better coloration of the sound before going to the PC.
 
OK...but then you are going: guitar--->Pod--->A&H pres(?)--->Direct Out--->pre/converter.....?
Mmmm...often the Direct Out is just a foldback of the input, so I don't know if on your A&H you are even touching it's channel preamp and getting any benefit from it...???

If you want to use the A&H pre...can you just go: guitar--->Pod--->A&H pre--->Line out to Line In on converter...?
Can you skip the pre on the converter?

That way, set your pre level at the A&H, and just send a nominal Line level signal to the converter....leaving the converter input gain also at nominal, and letting the premap dicatate the level.
If you bump up the A&H channel level/Line level output...then it's not just the preamp level hitting the converter.

You do have a few things in the chain, so I can see how it's easy for levels to get skewed and confusing.
 
OK...but then you are going: guitar--->Pod--->A&H pres(?)--->Direct Out--->pre/converter.....?
Mmmm...often the Direct Out is just a foldback of the input, so I don't know if on your A&H you are even touching it's channel preamp and getting any benefit from it...???

If you want to use the A&H pre...can you just go: guitar--->Pod--->A&H pre--->Line out to Line In on converter...?
Can you skip the pre on the converter?

That way, set your pre level at the A&H, and just send a nominal Line level signal to the converter....leaving the converter input gain also at nominal, and letting the premap dicatate the level.
If you bump up the channe level/Line level output...you it's not just the preamp level.

I did some research on being able to bypass the pres on the converters but i dont think you can. From what i understand though as long as you keep the gain nob down on the converter it will create a cleaner signal. I know this could open another can of worms but from what is said on other forums if it would be possible to eliminate the pres on the ada8000s those budget converters would rule the market for anything under two grand. They say that the pres are the only thing that really ruins those converters.
 
Direct out is most definitely after the preamp. It's not just a pass-through for the input.

You can skip the mic preamp of the pre/converter by going into the line input. There is still gain control marked according to the expected input level. The nominal level of the direct outputs (of a MixWizard WZ3) is 0dBu so I'd set the input gain of the ADA8000 a bit above the +4 marking and do the rest of my gain setting at the mixer's preamp.
 
if i would go in and tame just that little spike would that be an efficient way of fixing the problem without lowering that channels place in the mix?

Again, these are two different things. If the brief over is an audible problem, then sure, you can fix that like you'd fix a popping P or sibilant S - lower the volume or use EQ for just that moment. But if it's not a problem, then you don't have to do anything. As long as the master output bus doesn't clip, what you hear while mixing is what you'll get in the final Wave file render.

--Ethan
 
Direct out is most definitely after the preamp. It's not just a pass-through for the input.

You can skip the mic preamp of the pre/converter by going into the line input. There is still gain control marked according to the expected input level. The nominal level of the direct outputs (of a MixWizard WZ3) is 0dBu so I'd set the input gain of the ADA8000 a bit above the +4 marking and do the rest of my gain setting at the mixer's preamp.

I know this is going to sound like im repeating you but just so i understand, I should run 1/4 inch into the converters set at around the +4 mark but still keep running the direct out of my board and set the gain so it is at the right level in the DAW? Also i should use the PFL to set the gain to peak at 0 and use the fader to adjust levels in the DAW?
 
Who's they? And don't get me started! :D

--Ethan

Just people on other sites that i read. I also read that they might be making a converter that has no pres just a converter box. Maybe i didnt understand what they were talking about. Whats your view on that which you dont want to get started? :):
 
Direct out is most definitely after the preamp. It's not just a pass-through for the input.

Thanks for the info...I wasn't sure about A&H board.
On my console, the Direct Out is just a foldback of the input.

Mmmmmm...actually , I need to check that.
It might be a foldback off the Line input, but not the pre input....it's been awhile, I don't use the Direct Out on my board that much. :D

You can skip the mic preamp of the pre/converter by going into the line input. There is still gain control marked according to the expected input level. The nominal level of the direct outputs (of a MixWizard WZ3) is 0dBu so I'd set the input gain of the ADA8000 a bit above the +4 marking and do the rest of my gain setting at the mixer's preamp.

Yes....this is what I was suggesting...skip the converter pre, and go Line in.

offcenter2005...I do think your "involved" signal chain may have been part of your clean/dirty signal problem.
If you reduce the chain, you should see an easier/cleaner signal, but still be able to hit the pres how you like.
 
Ok so the direct out does go through the preamp? Good, Ive heard a decent amount of good things about that board, for the price. Ive gotten pretty good recordings out of it but i think my projects are gonna be leaps and bounds beyond what they were after the help ive gotten from all of you, so thanks for everything. But if its not too old yet keep it coming.
 
Ok so the direct out does go through the preamp?

Yeah....when you think about it, it has to, otherwise the Direct Out would be Mic level...not sure what I was thinking! DUH! :D
Though I do think on my board the Line input does just fold back (it doesn't go through the channels Line Trim/Amp section.

So really...in either case (Mic or Line input)...the Direct Out will be a Line level signal then....so feeding it via DI at the converter's pre could cause high/hot/crunch levels.
Check you A&H manual (though I think bouldersoundguy knows that board specifically, so go with what he says).
 
offcenter2005...I do think your "involved" signal chain may have been part of your clean/dirty signal problem.
If you reduce the chain, you should see an easier/cleaner signal, but still be able to hit the pres how you like.

do you mean cut out the board and go straight into the converters?
 
Not necessarily...do what BSG is telling you...so that you remove the pre/DI at the converter, and just go Line level from the A&H. I am not familiar with that Behringer box like BSG and you.
 
I know this is going to sound like im repeating you but just so i understand, I should run 1/4 inch into the converters set at around the +4 mark but still keep running the direct out of my board and set the gain so it is at the right level in the DAW?

That's what I would do more or less. I would set input gains on the board according to the manual's instructions and the input gains on the ADA8000 for the desired digital level. I assume the inputs on the ADA8000 would end up a bit above the +4 mark (since the nominal direct output level of a MixWizard is 0dBu) but I would experiment to find the setting that resulted in the digital levels I want.

Also i should use the PFL to set the gain to peak at 0 and use the fader to adjust levels in the DAW?

I would keep the faders at unity. Actually, I would move the jumpers inside the board to make the direct outputs pre-fader. Once the input gains of the ADA8000 are properly set then the input gains of the board become the only gain control you need to adjust.

Note that all of the above treats gain as just gain. Sometimes gain becomes tone. That is, on some mic preamps setting gain is also adjusting tone. In those cases you may need to be more flexible with downstream gain control (like on the ADA8000) to accommodate using preamp gain control to get tone.
 
Once the input gains of the ADA8000 are properly set then the input gains of the board become the only gain control you need to adjust.

offcenter2005 ---- this ^^^^ is key.

That's what we were talking about earlier..."igoring" the digital levels and doing all the level setting at the analog front end.

Also...keep in mind that you have the POD level driving your A&H preamp, and of course your guitar driving the POD input....so that should be set right too.
It's not quite the same as a mic plugged into the A&H pre amp and going to the converter Line input.

Try to always minimize the number of gain stages/level conversions you have to go through with your tracking signal chain.
 
That's what I would do more or less. I would set input gains on the board according to the manual's instructions and the input gains on the ADA8000 for the desired digital level. I assume the inputs on the ADA8000 would end up a bit above the +4 mark (since the nominal direct output level of a MixWizard is 0dBu) but I would experiment to find the setting that resulted in the digital levels I want.



I would keep the faders at unity. Actually, I would move the jumpers inside the board to make the direct outputs pre-fader. Once the input gains of the ADA8000 are properly set then the input gains of the board become the only gain control you need to adjust.

Note that all of the above treats gain as just gain. Sometimes gain becomes tone. That is, on some mic preamps setting gain is also adjusting tone. In those cases you may need to be more flexible with downstream gain control (like on the ADA8000) to accommodate using preamp gain control to get tone.

There is the option to also change pre or post eq i guess. So just change the pre? What would this do to help? I understand pre and post but with a preamp im not sure. Thanks.
 
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