makeup vs output

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andrushkiwt

andrushkiwt

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Something obvious I'm missing here? Some compressors I've been using have both options. Time to use one or another? Why have makeup if you can just use output gain?
 
Make up gain can be used for level matching with the previous device in the chain and/or to control how much you drive the front end of the compressor...which can have an effect on your Threshold/Attack/Release/Ratio settings.

The output level is there so you can set it to match the original input level for A/B comparisons...and again, to match the level requirements of the next device in the chain.
 
Not really sure what you mean...?

I always understand "make-up gain" to mean input gain, especially when there is also an output level option...since gain implies what you are getting on the receiving end...not so much output.
That's how it's always been implemented on my hardware comps.

Is that what you are talking about?
 
This is how I've thought it goes...

Input - feeding volume into the plug

Make up - volume after the compressor reduces by its intended reduction. So if your compressor is taking 3db off, you can "make up" that 3db with this control.

Output - final volume control after the plug.

So from the way I've understood it, output and makeup are similar. They both control the final volume. Unless I'm misunderstanding.
 
Yeah, I've always pictured makeup gain like you described: gain after the compression circuit that allows you to make up the dBs that you shaved off with the compression.

No idea why there'd be makeup gain and output gain...they seem redundant to me.
 
Tadpui said:
Yeah, I've always pictured makeup gain like you described: gain after the compression circuit that allows you to make up the dBs that you shaved off with the compression.

No idea why there'd be makeup gain and output gain...they seem redundant to me.
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Yup. That's what I'm sayin! Like I said, just thought I'd ask in case I'm missing something here. Thnx
 
andrushkiwt said:
Input - feeding volume into the plug

Make up - volume after the compressor reduces by its intended reduction. So if your compressor is taking 3db off, you can "make up" that 3db with this control.

Output - final volume control after the plug.
Click to expand...

That's the way I understand it as well. 'Make-up gain' compensates for the loss of level due to the compressor at work

andrushkiwt said:
So from the way I've understood it, output and makeup are similar. They both control the final volume. Unless I'm misunderstanding.
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They are similar but not identical. Make-up gain gets you to where you were before compression, and from there then you can adjust the overall level. Having said that, I rarely use make-up gain, and simply adjust the output level.
 
Mmm...but if make-up raises the volume AFTER the compressor circuit...it's no different then than the Output level control.
IOW, it would then be redundant to have them both post-comp circuit.

I'm sure soft comps have all kinds of additional options, and there may be different implementations of their features/options...
...but again, on my hardware comps if there is a make-up gain AND and output level control...the make-up gain is pre-comp circuit, the output level is post.

If you have just one level control...then I guess it can be at either end, regardless of what they call it....and it may be that some use the term make-up gain to suggest the gain post-comp circuit...but to me, it usually implies gain on the incoming signal when and output control is present..and it's like that on my comps, there's no disputing that the input level is being controlled.

Same as with pres....make-up gain will raise the input signal to drive the preamp...output level is just what it says, though again, the terminology can be used post-comp too if that's all you have.

I think you may want to just experiment with the two controls, and with the incoming signal, and see where each is acting.
 
Makeup gain is always after the compression happens. It doesn't make any sense otherwise. If you haven't done anything to it yet, what are you making up for?

That said, can I please see an example of a comp with both variable makeup gain and output level? A lot of them offer automatic makeup gain and then an overall output. This can be useful when you're really digging in with a lot of reduction. Automatic makeup should bring it back up closer to its original peak level, but now that the RMS level is higher, that might be too much, so turn it down with the output knob. Why not just turn up the output control? Sometimes they don't offer enough upward adjustment.
 
Sea Reaper's compressor below. No input level control, but there is the auto make-up button, and an output level control.

reacomp.jpg
 
ashcat_lt said:
Makeup gain is always after the compression happens.
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I think it's more of a terminology thing, not some absolute.


My point is....if there are two level controls...it makes no sense to have them both post-comp circuit.
One is then for the input level pre-comp the other is for the output level post-comp.

On my Joe Meek SC2.2 box there are two level controls...one for the input feeding the comp circuit and the other at the output. They chose to call them Input Gain and Output Gain.

On my Audio Designs & Recording unit...the level control for the signal input, pre-comp circuit is called "Make-up Gain"...it has nothing to do with the output level, post-comp.

So...the terminology may vary from device to device, and what it implies....so I suggest you just find where/what control is doing to the signal, and not assume that "Make-up Gain" always means the same thing on every comp. :)
 
ReaComp's automatic makeup is definitely post-compression.
ashcat_lt said:
can I please see an example of a comp with both variable makeup gain and output level?
Click to expand...
No, some random knob marked gain doesn't count either. It has to be specifically called out as makeup gain.

Hardware or software. Show me. The OP must have at least one, no?
 
miroslav said:
Make up gain can be used for level matching with the previous device in the chain and/or to control how much you drive the front end of the compressor...which can have an effect on your Threshold/Attack/Release/Ratio settings.
Click to expand...
Makeup gain is after the compressor. It's used to make up the gain lost during compression.

As for the original question, I have no idea why they would have both. Unless it does something else, beside compression.
 
I'd put a "eating popcorn" emoji, but I'm the OP. :)

Yeah it's called TDR Feedback Compressor. Mind googling it so I dont have to run to my laptop, fiddle with the Wi-fi, and take a screenshot? I'm sure a quick Google search will show it. Make up gain up top, output level below it. I'm not making it up! It seems weird to me too...thus the reason for creating this post. Make up sounds clearly like it's making up for lost volume after compression.

Didnt mean to start a fuss. Thought the basic concepts were straight forward. Aside from the two knobs which appear to be doing the same thing (to my ears anyways)
 
Farview said:
Makeup gain is after the compressor. It's used to make up the gain lost during compression.

As for the original question, I have no idea why they would have both. Unless it does something else, beside compression.
Click to expand...


Right...the question wasn't about where the term "make-up gain" can be used....it was about having both Make-up Gain and Output level contorls....in which case, I agree, it makes little sense to have both "Make-Up Gain" and "Output" level controls...post-comp circuit.

That aside...AFA the terminology "make-up gain"...it can be used anywhere in a circuit, and be a valid term describing level control, and like I mentioned above, AD&R used "Make-Up Gain specifically for the input signal, pre-comp circuit...and AD&R certainly wasn't some hack designer of audio gear (especially comp circuits) to not know the "proper" terminology. :)

That said, I don't deny that when it's found as the only level control on many comps..."Make-Up Gain" tends to be post-comp...but many also have just "Output" or Output Gain".
And all that being said...I think with soft comps, the designers can pretty much include all kinds of features that might not have been found on more traditional hardware devices...some even redundant features.

It's more about knowing the device you are using, and where/what each knob does...than absolute terminology, which can vary.

andrushkiwt said:
Make up gain up top, output level below it. I'm not making it up! It seems weird to me too...thus the reason for creating this post. Make up sounds clearly like it's making up for lost volume after compression.

Didnt mean to start a fuss. Thought the basic concepts were straight forward. Aside from the two knobs which appear to be doing the same thing (to my ears anyways)
Click to expand...

Right...not doubting it...but saying/agreeing it's odd to have both post-comp.
Oh..and no fuss...just underscores that there's no absolute.
 
Well I'll be damned! Yeah, that's mostly redundant. Unless there's some non-linearity between the two... Might be that the output gain is meant to compensate after the dry mix is added in? Does it have docs that explain this?
 
ashcat_lt said:
Might be that the output gain is meant to compensate after the dry mix is added in? Does it have docs that explain this?
Click to expand...

Right...valid point.
If there is a "blending", a mix option...a parallel circuit that combines both compressed and dry at the end...yeah, then that's another possible twist.
 
I think that's what it is, a parallel compression thing. Look at the knob, it says "Dry Mix" above it, and "Output" below it. It's so you can blend in the original uncompressed signal and get a parallel compression thing going.
 
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