Loud mixes????

R

RFR

Well-known member
How do you do it?
Almost every in the box mix I hear in this place is louder than mine.

Some when I download into my daw or just as a wav file are bouncing slightly into the red on drum peaks but still sound good.

I'll push my mixes into the top of the yellow on protools being very careful to never let it go red on the master. I'll run a bit of limiting on the master buss to keep it in line.

But then I'll run another mix from someone else and it's louder to the point where I have to bring the volume down.

I just dont understand. Because it seems like I'm raising the volume in the daw master buss as high as I can, but it's not enough.

In analog mixes I don't have that issue. I can get those plenty loud.

Im not trying for a squashed all to hell loudness war kind of thing, just comparable volume levels to other stuff.
 
I wouldn't mind knowing this too. I've no idea how this works. But then I don't know how to use limiters or what a master bus is either. I just make sure nothing is clipping on any of my individual tracks.
 
RFR said:
How do you do it?
Almost every in the box mix I hear in this place is louder than mine.

Some when I download into my daw or just as a wav file are bouncing slightly into the red on drum peaks but still sound good.

I'll push my mixes into the top of the yellow on protools being very careful to never let it go red on the master. I'll run a bit of limiting on the master buss to keep it in line.

But then I'll run another mix from someone else and it's louder to the point where I have to bring the volume down.

I just dont understand. Because it seems like I'm raising the volume in the daw master buss as high as I can, but it's not enough.

In analog mixes I don't have that issue. I can get those plenty loud.

Im not trying for a squashed all to hell loudness war kind of thing, just comparable volume levels to other stuff.
Click to expand...

More often than not this is because the other mixes are perhaps less dark or have less low end weight. Bass frequencies are the biggest killer when it comes to headroom. I would suggest rolling off anything below 20hz as there is usually information down there that is inaudible. Check out this tutorial I put together.

https://youtu.be/NdaF4tqPCX0

Cheers 4D
 
+1 4dboy.

It's all about the frequency content of the mix - the balance.
A 'loud' mix should seem loud before you do any master processing or smashing or whatever you want to do.
You'll read "just pop a limiter on it" plenty but it's just not going to work on a mix with issues ten steps back.

Now have you two mixes in which the bass guitar seem to have roughly equal weight, but one of them probably has way too much extreme low end.
Your limiter, and overall final volume, won't like that.

If someone made a hundred decisions like that a limiter is not going to help at all, but it'll sure as shit smash your sound apart!
 
4DBoy said:
More often than not this is because the other mixes are perhaps less dark or have less low end weight. Bass frequencies are the biggest killer when it comes to headroom. I would suggest rolling off anything below 20hz as there is usually information down there that is inaudible. Check out this tutorial I put together.

https://youtu.be/NdaF4tqPCX0

Cheers 4D
Click to expand...


There are some dubstep mixes and dark Metal mixes with lots of LF content, that are still very loud.
Also...with "constrained" PB systems like ear buds and such, the LF is already going to be rolled off by the PB systems...while the better quality systems will handle the LF without issue.
I agree...it's all about the right balance of frequencies, so if your LF is WAY louder than the rest, you will struggle to make the whole mix sound louder...but I don't agree that you just roll everything off at 20 Hz, rather you want to balance out the LF with the mids and highs.
 
I tend to roll off on individual instruments in heavy mixes.
Lead or extra parts mostly. Quite often I'll roll off high, listening to the entire mix as I do it.

Some people seem to have a sequence of strokes over the concept but it makes sense to me to cut away completely unnecessary information.


Also, 4DBoy - Can't help but notice you've a youtube link in all your posts so far.
Probably best to knock that on the head. ;)
 
Steenamaroo said:
I tend to roll off on individual instruments in heavy mixes.
Lead or extra parts mostly. Quite often I'll roll off high, listening to the entire mix as I do it.

Some people seem to have a sequence of strokes over the concept but it makes sense to me to cut away completely unnecessary information.


Also, 4DBoy - Can't help but notice you've a youtube link in all your posts so far.
Probably best to knock that on the head. ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah...I do that too, roll stuff off *as needed* on some tracks/instruments...I just don't by default roll off at 20 Hz on everything.
I also think that there are times when things just outside of the normal hearing range CAN have some effect on the stuff we do hear.
Shit...if I just listened to sine waves at say 18k Hz...I would not hear anything. I mean, young girls might hear that stuff, but most of us start to naturally roll things off at 16k Hz once we get into adulthood and beyond.
That said...if you go to a mix and just roll everything off at that point...you WILL hear a change in the sound of the overall mix.

I personally don't get too hung up on the HF, as it tends to bother my ears when too loud...but I'm not too quick to remove the LF across the board, because on a decent system, you will notice a change in the overall mix....and it can kill off some of that LF energy.

Oh...and yeah, I too was wondering about how all his posts point to YT vids, which point to a commercial website... ;)
 
1) Put slate fg-x on mix bus
2) Turn the gain knob till you're averaging around -12db rms
3) Feel like a newb because you couldn't figure out how to do it with compressors/limiters on your own (this step is optional but it's part of my workflow.)
 
RFR said:
How do you do it?
Almost every in the box mix I hear in this place is louder than mine.

Some when I download into my daw or just as a wav file are bouncing slightly into the red on drum peaks but still sound good.

I'll push my mixes into the top of the yellow on protools being very careful to never let it go red on the master. I'll run a bit of limiting on the master buss to keep it in line.

But then I'll run another mix from someone else and it's louder to the point where I have to bring the volume down.

I just dont understand. Because it seems like I'm raising the volume in the daw master buss as high as I can, but it's not enough.

In analog mixes I don't have that issue. I can get those plenty loud.

Im not trying for a squashed all to hell loudness war kind of thing, just comparable volume levels to other stuff.
Click to expand...

You see the major difference between tape and digital is tape adds a little bit of limiting/compression and digital doesn't.
If you ever get the opportunity to visit one of the "big guys" in the mixing world. You'll notice that their tracking signal chain will very rarely contain just a mic pre and A/D.

in example: Chris Lord-Alge : chain #1 mic pre- limiter- compressor- limiter- A/D. chain #2 mic pre - compressor - limiter- A/D. No plugins usually are used in pro tools (even on the master bus)

does it mean its a deal breaker to go mic pre-A/D? no. It just means you need to limit your dynamic range of each track properly before mixing.

so, you need to practice mixing things with smaller dynamic range, but with headroom. Try -16dbfs nominal signal with no signal going above -14dbfs.

Mastering should primarily be gain and eq and a little kiss from a limiter, but not squashed or slammed.

also you need to realize that the digital scale is not the same as analog. View the attachment.

meteringfaq.gif
 
easlern said:
1) Put slate fg-x on mix bus
2) Turn the gain knob till you're averaging around -12db rms
3) Feel like a newb because you couldn't figure out how to do it with compressors/limiters on your own (this step is optional but it's part of my workflow.)
Click to expand...

I've used Slate FG-X. I turn on the Constant Gain Monitoring function and turn the knob until I hear things go wrong and back off a touch, then turn Constant Gain off. Sometimes it's that simple. If that doesn't work then it's time to look at the overall frequency content of the mix or any individual element that's overly dynamic.

Your step 3 only needs to be done the first time you use an actual mastering limiter.
 
I wasn't aware that I couldn't share free content guys. Assume it's in the rules so will stop. Cheers for the heads-up!
 
4DBoy said:
I wasn't aware that I couldn't share free content guys. Assume it's in the rules so will stop. Cheers for the heads-up!
Click to expand...

There's a difference between wearing a T-shirt with a logo and handing out flyers to everyone you meet. The former is considered normal while the latter is considered pushy. You basically walked into a room of strangers and started pushing flyers into people's hands. That's why I won't be clicking on any of your links.
 
Greg_L said:
Aw shit, you done opened the box. :laughings:

I'll tell you my secret in a PM.
Click to expand...

Hey! Someone had to. :D


Seriously, Ive been reading all the posts. Thanks for the responses one and all. I cant help but thinking I'm not alone in wanting to find out these secrets of the universe.

All theses different DB scales are starting to drive me nuts. LOL Im starting to think that dbfs really stand for "DB fer fucks sake". I have an analog Durrough Loudness meter that measures average and peaks That's cool and easy. But some daw scales aren't making sense yet.

I'm coming from a world with simple rules, don't go over zero.


It was mentioned that bass freq being too much contributes to a lower in volume mix.......If that's the case, how the hell do you explain Hip Hop and EDM???


On a more specific note, what DB scale does Protools use?
 
miroslav said:
There are some dubstep mixes and dark Metal mixes with lots of LF content, that are still very loud.
Click to expand...
They're also pretty much deliberately smashed, generally heavily distorted, and usually pump and breathe pretty heavily - often deliberately. If you're trying to avoid those things...

Also...with "constrained" PB systems like ear buds and such, the LF is already going to be rolled off by the PB systems...while the better quality systems will handle the LF without issue.
I agree...it's all about the right balance of frequencies, so if your LF is WAY louder than the rest, you will struggle to make the whole mix sound louder...but I don't agree that you just roll everything off at 20 Hz, rather you want to balance out the LF with the mids and highs.
Click to expand...
This isn't really the point. No system anywhere is going to give much meaningful output at 20Hz, and you wouldn't actually hear it anyway. There are a lot of things that we can do to a mix - especially in the generally DC coupled world of ITB mixing - that can create what amount to extremely low frequency content. Those things are going to basically just push your overall level up without adding anything you care about. You won't be to get the music as loud as you might otherwise before clipping or smashing into a limiter.
 
IMO...and considering that you, like me, do your tracking in the analog domain, to tape...just get those nice juicy signals down during tracking...and after you transfer to DAW...ignore the digital meters. :D

OK...maybe not totally...but the point is, the signal is the signal is the signal. So, if it's nice and hot and not distorting in the analog domain, it will be fine, and you can simply take it from there with your processing and mixing, and as long as you don't increase or lower the overage level by a lot...at the end of the line, you will have a decent mix that will be "mastering ready and friendly, and you can then hit it with some of the many steps to "pump up the volume".
IMO...tracking ini the analog/tape domain sets you up in a much better gain staging position than what some people end up with when they track right into the DAW and get all kinds of weird levels...and then after that, it's a constant tug of war with the mix balance and the loudness and the dynamics.

The other question is ....ho loud are you shooting for?
I personally discard those mixes I hear that are so RIDICULOUSLY LOUD that you immediately reach for the volume knob to turn them down.
Those are my loudness references...and I never feel like I'm missing out because I don't have my mixes that RIDICULOUSLY LOUD. :D

You can attain a failry loud, yet well balanced, dynamically interesting mix...and if it's a bit shy compared to the RIDICULOUSLY LOUD stuff...so what. let the listener deal with it.
I find that if I run through YouTube or Soundcloud or even the better commercial stuff...they are all over the place.
Not to mention...more and more of the streaming services/sites are employing their own loudness algorithms...so that kinda evens things out, just like broadcast radio use to do (and still does)...and for those delivery outlets, if you do have a mix that is RIDICULOUSLY LOUD...their loudness algorithms will make it sound shittier. The stuff that's lower in loudness isn't as negatively affected.
 
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