Kick drum vs. Bass Guitar Round 1

Scottgman

Legend in Own Mind
I’m in the process of recording a friend’s band. We have most of the tracking done and I’ve recently started mixing a couple of the songs. Anyway, I’m having a tough time getting the kick drum to cut through the mix. I’m pretty sure this is a result of the bass guitar and kick drum competing for frequencies because when I mute the bass guitar tracks, the kick cuts-though the mix nicely.

So, I’ve been lurking on this forum for almost a year now and I’ve read lots of stuff on “carving out” space for each instrument in the mix using a little EQ (preferably subtractive EQ). It seems so logical and easy on the surface but making it happen is a whole different story. I probably spent two hours last Saturday just playing with EQ on the kick drum and Bass guitar with no real success. I probably put the same amount of time in tweaking compression settings. I’ve tried reversing the phase on the kick drum track also. The only thing that really seemed to help was panning the two bass guitar tracks (one mic on a 4x10 cab the other on a 15) about 20% which made the kick drum cut through better but still not as much as I’d like.

With the EQ, I was trying to cut the low lows on the bass (< 100 HZ) thinking that would give the kick some space but it really didn’t and seemed to make the bass guitar lose some beef. I continued tinkering with EQ but the end result always seemed to be too much loss in the bottom-end, whether it was the bass guitar or kick drum getting cut.

So I guess I’m looking for clarification or advice on how you “carve out” that space at the bottom? I'm having a tough time making the kick drum and bass guitar play nicely in the same frequency sand box.
 
You have to figure out which is going to occupy the lowest frequency range. If it's the bass, try rolling off below 80hz on the kick and possibly adding around 2.5khz, to keep the definition. If the kick is the low end, try rolling off below 80hz on the bass and adding 1-3khz for definition. I'm just throwing out some numbers that might work as a starting point.
 
I see. So it really just comes down to a decision between which is going to occupy the low-end? Is it really just that simple?

Judging by the number of replies, I guess it is... lol. Maybe I should take this to the newbie board.
 
Scottgman said:
I see. So it really just comes down to a decision between which is going to occupy the low-end? Is it really just that simple?

No.:D But every bit adds up to help.
Another angle is to ask, will the bottom pulse with the kick or be more melodic with the bass?
You can attack the problem from both frequence and level.
 
i think frequency occupation has a lot to do with the problem, but I think most of the time it's the actual tone of the kick and bass that's causing problems. I rarely have a problem with battling frequencies when I'm dealing with a properly tuned kick played by a good drummer and a good bass played by a good bass player.
 
Do they sound OK together in isolation?

Coming at it from another angle, do the bass and kick sound ok together, clear, but then it gets muddy when you bring in the other instruments? if this is the case you may need to look at the EQ on the guitars. Try getting rid of the low end on the rhythm guitar for example, maybe that is muddying the mix and competing with the 'click' of the bass drum meaning its harder to pick out in the full mix.

Just a thought.
 
Thanks for posting this one. I'm having the exact same problem with a song I'm mixing now. A little different, being that it's a stand-up bass and acoustic guitars. I'm going to try rolling off the lows a bit on the acoustics tonight and see how it works. I'm in a new room and getting used to it's sound just now.
 
wimat said:
Thanks for posting this one. I'm having the exact same problem with a song I'm mixing now. A little different, being that it's a stand-up bass and acoustic guitars. I'm going to try rolling off the lows a bit on the acoustics tonight and see how it works. I'm in a new room and getting used to it's sound just now.
I had some fun with an upright on a live project; a mic track on the cab and a D/I. Set one up eq'd and compressed slightly panned as the 'stage' position, one centered as the primary low-end. Nice spread and depth effect.

Glynb's point re other insturments/mud is a good one.:)
Wayne
 
Yeah thanks glynb, I haven't tried isolating the guitars from the mix. I assumed it was the kick/bass guitar duking it out.
 
fenix said:
i think frequency occupation has a lot to do with the problem, but I think most of the time it's the actual tone of the kick and bass that's causing problems. I rarely have a problem with battling frequencies when I'm dealing with a properly tuned kick played by a good drummer and a good bass played by a good bass player.

This is making sense to me.

I'm working with drum loops done by a pro drummer and recorded very well. Before I got these loops I was concerned about them because the drums are not broken out to individual tracks. So I was thinking what the hell will I do when I run into the Kick drum/Bass GTR problem. The definition I'm getting between kick and bass is great with using these loops. I'm a pretty basic bass player (guitar my main instrument) but I have an excellent bass and combined with well recorded drums I'm not having problems.

Now I go back and listen to stuff I did a good while back with a drummer with nowhere near the recording quality of the loops and things are all over the place.
 
hey scottgman, if you clean up the low end on the guitars (i usually roll off starting at around 100 or 120) and other instruments in the mix (and vocals, too.....who regularly sings below 200Hz?), it'll clean up the upper lows and that lower midrange for you. oftentimes things are not always what they seem and mud can come from all kinds of places. basically emphasize the frequencies that you need to emphasize for the various instruments to cut through/sit well, and get the rest of em the hell outta there. :D

make sure you've got your panning under control, too. get those guitars out of the middle, except for maybe the lead. and even then, sometimes the lead works better panned a little to one side or the other.


YMMV


wade
 
What you don't hear

I think as a rule of thumb you can cut things out that you don't normaly hear for that particular instrument. Like acoustic guitar, you can get a lot of low 'boom' frequesncies which you don't actualy conciously hear in a mix but just serve to muddy things up by taking 'space' away from the drums and bass. With acoustic guitar you tend to hear the high range 'jangly' frequencies not low range, so take them out and clean up the mix. Applies to electric guitar too. Of course you mustn't overdo it or the instrument ends up sounding unnatural.

BTW I don't profess to be any expert, I've just read advice from others with knowledge like Blue Bear and found from my limited experience that they are right.
 
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