Just had to share this.

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Very cool Harvey! :cool:


So just out of curiosity...what is the ballpark price range for a pair?


Oh...looking at the website...is it me, or should those monitors actually be switched left to right?
Wouldn't you want the highs/mids cylinders on the ends of your stereo image...even if they do rotate for any position?
 
Very cool Harvey! :cool:

So just out of curiosity...what is the ballpark price range for a pair?
In piano gloss black, around $4,000. Around $3,500 in flat black. Final price hasn't been determined.

Oh...looking at the website...is it me, or should those monitors actually be switched left to right?
Wouldn't you want the highs/mids cylinders on the ends of your stereo image...even if they do rotate for any position?
It's you. That is how they should be used - with the tweeters and mids inboard. I'll go into why (and why all the other designs are wrong) as soon as I get my morning coffee.
 
It's you. That is how they should be used - with the tweeters and mids inboard. I'll go into why (and why all the other designs are wrong) as soon as I get my morning coffee.

I would love to hear it!
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While I have my monitors in their default vertical position, there were always the guys that liked them on their sides...and whenever they did that, everyone would always make a point of saying that the tweeters should be on the outside, otherwise the stereo image would crap out (well, you know all those stories Harvey)...
...so yeah, I would like to hear a different perspective.

That said...I don't think I can spring for a pair of the Trident HG3 monitors at this time :D but compared to a lot of other "high-end" monitors...$3,500-$4000 isn't totally absured...I guess.
I've been lusting after some of the real higher-end ADAM monitors...but they are a bit crazy-pricey. :eek:
 
Interesting ideas in those speakers, Harvey. Best of luck with them! And it's nice to finally know what that secret project was that you told us you were working on a year ago or so :).

But I gotta respectfully ask the begging question here: why the $500 difference between gloss black and flat black?

G.
 
But I gotta respectfully ask the begging question here: why the $500 difference between gloss black and flat black?

I'm guessing it takes a lot of work for them to buff the flat black to a glossy shine. ;)

:D


Just kidding around.
Maybe it's some particular paint/process to get the piano-gloss finish....???
 
I'm sure there's a reason for the difference, and it's not just a different can of spray paint and an extra coat of polyurethane that costs $250 per loudspeaker ;). But it's just an area of manufacturing for which I'm kinda ignorant, so I am curious as to what's involved.

G.
 
Ok, let's start with a few basic (and well known) facts and problems that all speaker designers must be aware of:
As the frequency goes up, highs becomes more directional. And the converse is also true: as the frequency goes down, dispersion increases. At very low frequencies, sound becomes pretty much omnidirectional.

Also, as the frequency goes down, it takes more power and more speaker movement to achieve the same output. (Simply put, that means if you go down one octave, you need to double the power, and the speaker movement must also double to keep the level the same.) That's why designers use Pink Noise (equal level per octave) more often than White Noise (equal power per octave).

There's also a little problem called "Group Delay" (a problem caused when the cabinet design stops helping the speaker at the low end, and lets the speaker go wild).

Remember hearing a train whistle go up in pitch as it approaches a crossing, and go down in pitch as it moves away from you? That's "Doppler Effect" in action and it also applies to low frequency speakers trying to play a high note at the same time it's playing a low note. Yes, in a speaker, it's subtle, but it's there. And it becomes "Intermodulation Distortion" when the speaker (and/or the amplifier) starts really having problems playing both notes at the same time. (I'll come back to these points in a few minutes.)

Finally, a speaker designer must be aware of "Edge Diffraction" (the "flashlight effect", where the midrange and high end get some interference from the face of the cabinet, but only at certain frequencies, thereby messing up the smooth response).

Whew, way more than I planned to go into, so let's take a break for a minute and try to absorb some of the above stuff. To illustrate the directional versus dispersion effect, here's a nice midrange speaker curve. Notice what happens to the high end response past about 3,000 Hz; it starts falling off as you move further off axis.

More in the next post.
 

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Notice what happens to the high end response past about 3,000 Hz; it starts falling off as you move further off axis.

Ok I have a dumb question. What if the speakers are mounted at a slight angle so that it triangulates at your listening position? Wouldn't that make the tweeters on the outside a better choice as none of the speakers would be off axis?
 
Ok I have a dumb question. What if the speakers are mounted at a slight angle so that it triangulates at your listening position? Wouldn't that make the tweeters on the outside a better choice as none of the speakers would be off axis?
Yes, and no, for several reasons. Yes, it is better when you point the tweeter right at your ears, so you're not listening off axis, but think about what that little column of high frequency air is passing through when they're trying to reach your ears; a pumping bass speaker and/or port - both moving a lot of air, which is modulating the mids and high end.

Add to that "Edge Diffraction", and you start to really degrade the mids and highs, and the overall imaging, with the mids/tweeters on the outside of the cabinet.

See the problem?
 
Yes, and no, for several reasons. Yes, it is better when you point the tweeter right at your ears, so you're not listening off axis, but think about what that little column of high frequency air is passing through when they're trying to reach your ears; a pumping bass speaker and/or port - both moving a lot of air, which is modulating the mids and high end.

Add to that "Edge Diffraction", and you start to really degrade the mids and highs, and the overall imaging, with the mids/tweeters on the outside of the cabinet.

See the problem?

So if you have the speakers on axis to your ears those problems would exist no matter which way the tweeters are positioned?
 
So if you have the speakers on axis to your ears those problems would exist no matter which way the tweeters are positioned?
Well, if the tweeters are towards the inside, the port and woofer has less effect on them, but "edge diffraction" is still an issue.

Try this with your current monitors:

Position the tweeter on the outside and listen very carefully to a female voice in the center; notice how the image wanders slightly, depending on the note she's singing. Now, exchange the cabinets, so that the tweeters are on the inside, and listen again.

It's very subtle, but you should hear the image stabilize slightly and become a bit clearer.

So, what did I do when I designed the HG3's?

I put the biggest air moving stuff (the port and the woofer) at the outside of the box, and moved the mid and high elements into a separate tube to eliminate "Edge Diffractions" and "Intermodulation Distortion" (caused by the mid and highs signal passing through the woofer/port air stream, or bouncing off the face of the cabinet). Couple that with a separate amplifier for just the mids and highs, and you get an absolutely stable and clear imaging.

If you turn the mid and tweeter tube to the front, the imaging actually decreases in clarity, since you're re-introducing "Edge Diffractions".

There's a lot more stuff going on in the HG3's design, but that explains why you should at least try listening to your current monitors with the tweeters on the inside.
 
Piano Gloss Black finishes are a lot harder to achieve, since the slightest bump or blemish becomes painfully obvious. It requires many coats, and delicate sanding between coats to get it perfect. It's both labor and craftsmanship intensive.
 
Thanks for the great tech stuff, Harvey!
Even though a lot of that stuff is common info...your presentation certainly improves the clarification!

OK...so I get what you are saying...though there was a discussion not too long on these forums about sound sources, reverb and whatnot...and some folks were arguing that sound waves do not interfere/interact with each other, and that they just pass through each other…which wasn't quite hitting home for me....and now you seem to be suggesting that they DO, which works for me.
But then...why have so many people always said to put the tweets to the outside when using speakers on-side???
Forgetting your HG3 monitors...would putting tweeters to the inside of horizontally placed monitors apply to every speaker design?
I actually did that the first time I ever tried a pair of monitors on the side....not so much 'cuz I had any idea what I was doing at the time :D but it seemed right, and sounded good too. Then I ran into all the "no, tweets must go to the outside" arguments...and figured all those people can be wrong.

OK...so...will there be a less costly and/or smaller design version...or is this pretty much it taking into account all the "math"?
It does get kinda' confusing when manufacturers make 3-5 different versions of "high-end", expensive speakers...as it makes you wonder why isn't there just one "best-case" design for their "vision"…though I know the obvious answer is marketing and being able to cover all income groups.
 
miroslav,

We're getting into the black art of mastering, where every little bit contributes to the sound.
Are these profound changes? No.
Can you hear each little bit of change? No, but when taken all together, yes, the differences become audible.
I keep the tweeter on the inside and I can hear the difference; some people can't. No big deal in and of itself.

Is the "you can't hear any directionality below 90 Hz" true? If you have a system with a sub, try putting an 80 or 90 Hz signal into the system and listen to just the stereo speakers and see if anything is coming out of them. Disconnect one of the high boxes and see if the signal changes direction. It does!! Big surprise.

People recommend the tweeters on the outside to increase the apparent width of the sound stage, but that's a compromise, because you're dealing with a very narrow soundstage to begin with when you're using nearfields. Do you want a wider soundstage (outside tweeters), but less accuracy, or a more accurate soundstage (inside tweeters)?

Having a lot of models improves a manufacturer's chances of capturing a greater share of the market. I'm currently working on a mastering speaker system that will run about 5 grand per side but will keep up with the really expensive mastering speakers already out there.
 
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Are you guys really falling for this?:confused::rolleyes:
Geez, after 50 plus years of designing speakers, you'd think I'd finally gotten past this kinda shit.

Look, if you have a problem with me, or what I'm saying, why don't you tell everybody your name and post some credentials? And then feel free to criticize and correct my statements (and why George Augspurger is wrong in his evaluation of the speakers). And why the president of Genelec was impressed enough at the AES show to bring back his chief engineer to hear them.

Oh yeah, Mix Magazine voted them one of the top 3 new speakers, out of about 40 companies showing new speakers there. Scott Dorsey (and Mike Rivers (two noted reviewers) said they were the "best sound" in the whole AES show.

This really get's tiresome.

Grow some balls and tell people who you are, and why they should listen to you, or shut the fuck up. I said right at the start of this thread that I'm not trying to push these speakers to HomeReccers; they're way too expensive for most people here, myself included.
 
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