I don't Trust My Monitors

[ibleedburgundy]

I use Yamaha HS80s 3 feet from the back wall on acoustic pads on my desk facing long-ways in a rectangle room that is 16.5 x 35.5 with 9 foot ceilings. I have wood floors and superchunk bass traps floor to ceiling in 3 of the corners and OC703 4 inch thick 2x4 traps all over the walls and ceiling. There are 30 of them, plus a good bit of auralex that I got ultra cheap on craigslist.

The room is probably not the problem.

I mix something and then get in my car and the bass drum is out of control. At low frequencies it is total guess work. I look at meters sometimes but they only tell you so much. The HS80s are supposed to be good down to 42Hz. They aren't expensive monitors but they aren't el cheapos either. They should be fine. Yamaha generally makes decent stuff IMO.

Do I need a sub in order to really see what my low end is doing? Should I think about getting different monitors? If I do get a sub, should I get a matching yamaha or should I think about another brand (like Genelec) and then upgrade Monitors later?

Thanks in advance for any replies. I'd like to hear what other folks have done over the years with their monitors, what they liked, what they didn't, if there were any epiphanies, etc.

 

[RFR]

From quite a few people I know, they've not had any issues with the Yammies not translating
Generally the bass is good with them. Unless your doing EDM or Hip Hop, there should be no need for a sub.

Have you had them long and thoroughly 'know' them ?

 

[ibleedburgundy]

Thanks!

I've had them for 3 years, but I don't think I've ever identified any particular tendencies. I've listened to a decent amount of other music on them and reference mixes so I know them in that regard.

 

[RFR]

Ok, well you got me baffled. I got a good buddy using them and no issues. His mixes sound great everywhere. I'm even considering getting a set myself. (but then again, I'm kind of a speaker junkie )

Sorry I'm no help, hope you sort it out soon. Trusting what you're hearing is kind of a big deal.

 

[JMac52]

Have you ever objectively measured the response of your room - with an Omni mic or SPL meter and an app like Room EQ Wizard? Maybe you've got a null in the low end at the listening position (in spite of copious treatment) that you are unwittingly compensating for...

 

[mjbphotos]

One thing to try - put a hi-pass on one of the problem mixes at 45-50Hz, and see if it sounds different - first in your mix room, then out in your car.

 

[mixsit]

One thing to try - put a hi-pass on one of the problem mixes at 45-50Hz, and see if it sounds different - first in your mix room, then out in your car.

And/or representative ref CDs/tracks, 'studio and car.

 

[mixsit]

I mix something and then get in my car and the bass drum is out of control. At low frequencies it is total guess work. I look at meters sometimes but they only tell you so much. The HS80s are supposed to be good down to 42Hz. They aren't expensive monitors but they aren't el cheapos either. They should be fine. Yamaha generally makes decent stuff IMO.

Also- have you tried checking the low balance standing in different places in the room? I have a spot I go to for finalizing the bottom octave or so as I now it's light where I sit in the room.

 

[Greg_L]

It's your car

 

[ibleedburgundy]

Have you ever objectively measured the response of your room - with an Omni mic or SPL meter and an app like Room EQ Wizard? Maybe you've got a null in the low end at the listening position (in spite of copious treatment) that you are unwittingly compensating for...

I've always wanted to do that, but I never have. Maybe I'll give it a shot.

 

[ibleedburgundy]

Also- have you tried checking the low balance standing in different places in the room? I have a spot I go to for finalizing the bottom octave or so as I now it's light where I sit in the room.

There are certainly differences between sitting in the mix position or not, but I've never gone to a part of the room where I thought low end response was better. I'll give the a shot.

 

[ibleedburgundy]

It's your car

My car has a stock bose system that is actually kind of weird. Nothing sounds great on it. That could certainly be the case.

 

[Greg_L]

Nothing sounds great on it. That could certainly be the case.

Isn't Bose notorious for hyped bass? You might as well reference through Beats headphones.

 

[JDOD]

OK, I'm hardly a mixing genius and don't have good gear - but I try and compensate for this by listening on two or three different sets of headphones and an old Sony stereo with a big pair of Wharfdales which is also connected to my computer.

Have you got ways of listening through multiple systems before you leave your desk..

I really do need to by some decent monitors at some point soon.

 

[Bobbsy]

A slightly different take on this...

Even with the best monitors you have to take some time to "learn" their sound. I usually recommend doing a mix then making CD and MP3 copies which I play in as many different places as I can...car, phone MP3 player, some audiophiles great set up, etc. etc. Take a mental note of what you like and don't like in each location and if there are any issues that span all the different playback systems then go back and mix again, adjusting what you hear on your monitors to try and compensate for deficiencies. Do this a few times on a few different styles and you'll quickly educate your ears to know how things have to sound in your studio to play well everywhere.

As with others, I've always thought the HS80s were pretty good so you shouldn't need to adjust your hearing too much--and if it's only your car that sounds different from the rest, then Greg_L is correct. Frankly most cars are silly with the way they handle bass.

 

[ibleedburgundy]

OK, I'm hardly a mixing genius and don't have good gear - but I try and compensate for this by listening on two or three different sets of headphones and an old Sony stereo with a big pair of Wharfdales which is also connected to my computer.

Have you got ways of listening through multiple systems before you leave your desk..

I really do need to by some decent monitors at some point soon.

I have HD280s that I reference on. That's about it. I could break out my old BX5s.

 

[musicgeekandlvr]

This might have crossed your mind already but maybe how you're interpreting the bass is due to how close you're sitting to the speakers. You'll hear a more prominent kick drum by standing a few feet back from the speakers. So maybe the kick is already louder than you hear in a mix sitting position and the Bose car speakers hype that even more.

 

[Chili]

Cars are bad spots for reviewing a mix, but it's a natural place for us to do so. Because we listen to so much music in the car, we are comfortable with that particular sound system. But are you "mastering" your mixes the same way as the reference material you listen to? Even just volume matching will make a big difference with how you perceive the mix, and then you gotta match up the RMS values.

From your description it sounds like your room is under control. Have you ever wrung it out with a reference mic? I think behringer has one at a good price and it is as flat as most every other reference mic out there. It will tell you what your room is really doing. You'll need some software, RoomEQ Wizard or something like that. HERE IT IS

So, I don't trust the low end in my studio either. I thought I had it under control but based on recent comments on my tunes, I have my doubts. I think sometimes I do psycho-mixing. Meaning, I know how I want it to sound and that skews my perception of what I'm actually hearing. I get a preconceived idea of the mix and I hear it in my head. When you're both musician and engineer, it's hard to distance yourself from the song and make unbiased adjustments.

 

[ibleedburgundy]

Cars are bad spots for reviewing a mix, but it's a natural place for us to do so. Because we listen to so much music in the car, we are comfortable with that particular sound system. But are you "mastering" your mixes the same way as the reference material you listen to? Even just volume matching will make a big difference with how you perceive the mix, and then you gotta match up the RMS values.

I do it both ways. On this latest mix I did add gain and a touch of limiting on the master in order to gain match with what a mastered version would be.

From your description it sounds like your room is under control. Have you ever wrung it out with a reference mic? I think behringer has one at a good price and it is as flat as most every other reference mic out there. It will tell you what your room is really doing. You'll need some software, RoomEQ Wizard or something like that. HERE IT IS

So, I don't trust the low end in my studio either. I thought I had it under control but based on recent comments on my tunes, I have my doubts. I think sometimes I do psycho-mixing. Meaning, I know how I want it to sound and that skews my perception of what I'm actually hearing. I get a preconceived idea of the mix and I hear it in my head. When you're both musician and engineer, it's hard to distance yourself from the song and make unbiased adjustments.

Thanks! I will try the wizard.

 

[jjinvegas]

You didn't mention what sort of music you do, but there is quite a variety of approaches to kick drums, from a very thin click in speedy metal to full-on thunk in mid-tempo rock slog. Most productions are using something in between, with a clear sort of attack and fairly conservative bottom. For a while it was annoyingly on the side of more bottom in the snare than the kick, but that has calmed down a bit. In any case, filtering below 50 hertz is probably a good rule of thumb. Have you observed the curve of your song in an analyzer and then looked at something you resect or are maybe trying to emulate as a comparison? Sometimes visual representation can be very helpful. Speakers with eight inch woofers may be listed as having response down to 42 hz, but common sense probably tells you that figure may be somewhat optimistic and as the professionals enjoy soffit mounted speakers with dual fifteens to really find out what is going on downstairs near-fields are maybe somewhat inadequate. This might seem like a pragmatic solution, but Reaper has the ability in their ReaFir VST to "learn' the frequency response of something you think is representative of what you are trying to sound like, and then apply it to your source material. I myself only care what works and have found it very helpful with problematic songs. There are other programs that do this as well. Since most people are listening on systems that do not handle bass very well these days, phones, little computer speakers, etc., erring on the side of less bottom is usually superior to having too much. These are very common difficulties, BTW, exacerbated by our ears' lovely tendency to change their frequency response at differing volume levels. Otherwise known as the Fletcher Munon curve, bane of engineers worldwide.....