How to mix/make vocals stand out in karaoke/stereo tracks?

Xpred

New member
Hi everyone. After a year hiatus (due to college and other personal issues), I've decided to go back at it again with the singing and mixing. It's just a personal hobby I enjoy most. Anyways, I posted a thread a year ago on how to truly mix vocals into karaoke/full stereo instrumental tracks. The thing is, I love to sing cover songs and I have lots of pretty good high-quality karaoke/full stereo tracks. The problem is just me trying to make the vocal stands out and make it as "studio quality" as possible. Whenever I record and try to mix it (the problem is surely my newbie mixing skills, I'm sure), the vocals seem really mudded by the music, and I know for SURE it's my mixing because I haven't at all mastered it completely.

Equipment I currently use: a good computer, MXL 990 mic, PreSonus Firebox preamp, cables, Adobe Audition 2.0

Anyways, what I do usually is just record the vocals in mono 16 or 24-bit 44.1khz in Audition. I just use compression 1st, then apply some graphic EQ settings, and last add some reverb. Then I am lost from here. I have read in the past several things, but the one I stick with is just duplicate 2 tracks, pan one far left and pan one far right on. So basically I would have 3 tracks sitting on the multitrack interface of Audition: STEREO Karaoke/Instrumental, MONO Vocals w/ effects panned -100, MONO vocals w/ effects panned 100. At the end, I just put them all "Mix to file" where it turns ALL the tracks into the complete mix and I can then save it.

However, when doing this, my vocals doesn't sound like it should. It seems to not sound as sharp enough or as clear enough. I'm a decent singer and I know it's not me. It also doesn't sound like it should be as it is. Y'know, professional songs' vocal is very clear and it seems like as though it's placed directly INTO the center of the music or something. My vocals sound like they're behind the music and uninspiring. My vocals sound like they're just poorly mixed and recorded over the music.. or such.. Well, I don't really know how to explain it. But, I'm pretty sure my mic is able to produce much better results even though it's a budget mic.

Anyways, I was wondering are there a set of instructions or list of things I must always accompany with when recording vocals? Like I should always "do this" or "do that?" in terms of putting vocals ONLY into the karaoke mix? That's what my main concern is, I don't have a full set of instruments--just a full stereo instrument/karaoke piece. How do you guys do it? Like step by step so I can learn. I know there are several ways to do it... but it seems I try to compare with the original and I notice the vocals mix is so crisp and clear, while mine seems to be overshadowed by the music no matter what. Hmm...

Also, is this the "CORRECT" way of putting vocals with music? Like multitrack wise. I have music on 1st track, vocals on 2nd/3rd track (recording mono-wise). Then I just export audio when done, and I can save it via mp3/wav.

Thanks mucho.
 
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Yep, I know exactly what you're saying. Our home vocals just don't sound the same as the pro recorded music. IMHO, the difference is what I call room effects. The pro stuff sounds like it is in a big room, or an auditorium, or other large area. Our home recordings sound like they are in a small closet. So, I think the trick is to find the right room effects to add to your vocals. You said you added some reverb to your vocals. But, there are many kinds of reverb. I recommend that you experiment with many different reverb settings that simulate different room types. Trial and error until you find a setting that comes close to making your vocal sound similar to the music. Apply that setting to your vocal before mixing with the music. Put the vocal in the middle of the stereo field. Make the vocal just a smidgen louder than the music to make it stand up front.
 
Hmm... I understand that fact too, but I'm also sure that I am new to mixing vocals into the music and I'm a perfectionist when it comes to wanting the results just right. However, does the way I explained above make sense? Like I am still unsure if that's how I put vocals into a stereo instrumental mix. I'm more worried about the process of vocals than how it compares or sounds. Cause I still feel inept and my way of just "copying and pasting" vocals into a stereo is unprofessional perhaps producing the crappy results that I am hearing.

It's just not that the pros sound like they're in a bigger room.. it just seems their vocals are crisp and clearer.. while mine seem to be muddy and not to it's full potential. I've tried experimenting with around different settings and looking at other threads... it seems some people have tried different stereo mixings, or frequency changes, etc for vocals... but I have no idea of what I need to do/experiment.. any other recommendations with steps and such, heh (Any detailed instructions)? I want to know how to do everything one by one... :p
 
Xpred said:
I have read in the past several things, but the one I stick with is just duplicate 2 tracks, pan one far left and pan one far right on. So basically I would have 3 tracks sitting on the multitrack interface of Audition: Karaoke/Instrumental, Vocals w/ effects panned -100, vocals w/ effects panned 100.


Where the hell did you read that mess of a technique? :D

What you're doing, essentially, is nothing. You copy a track and pan it left and right ... and what you have is still a mono track. Forget about those dumb techniques you've read about and just keep your one track center-panned. You'll be happier.

The reason your stuff doesn't sound professional, by the way, is because ... You're not a professional. (And you're not recording in a studio like most professionals do).

Just have fun with your little Karaoke tracks. Your mom and your other friends you hand them out to won't care.
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Exactly. I want to make it sound as professional as possible. So I've come here to learn the techniques and what steps I must do because quite frankly my prior knowledge and the steps I've been using before doesn't cut it. So teach me, wise Jedi's of the sound. What should I do to bring out the vocals/make them with what I have right now into the karaoke/instrumental mix I have/
 
While the response from chessrock is a bit gruff, it's essentially correct. Your vocal might do better as one single mono track in the middle of the stereo field. By putting vocal tracks left and right, you are actually putting a vocal track in the middle of the instruments that are on each side. Don't put vocals where the instruments are. They are fighting each other. You want the vocal to be separated from the instruments.
 
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Notch out. find out the range you sing in(bass, baritone ,tenor ect)


http://www.homerecordingconnection.com/news.php?action=view_story&id=154

Could help. I agree that pro results at home is a bit tough; you don't have the same level of tools available and the whatever room your in at home won't hold a candle to a real "booth". you do need to track as dry ( Zero ambience) as humanly possible to be able to take advantage of compression and other tricks. ;)

So I've come here to learn the techniques

maybe go here:
http://www.soundonsound.com/articles/Technique.php


Good luck :D
 
Nick98338 said:
While the response from chessrock is a bit gruff, it's essentially correct. Your vocal might do better as one single mono track in the middle of the stereo field. By putting vocal tracks left and right, you are actually putting a vocal track in the middle of the instruments that are on each side. Don't put vocals where the instruments are. They are fighting each other. You want the vocal to be separated from the instruments.


Ah, yes... would there be any way then to perhaps manipulate or simulate a good sound with the vocals with my instrumental tracks? Or would I ultimately have to look at my music track and determine it? The question is I don't know, given what I have, would be the best and most recommended way of only mixing vocals into already a stereo instrumental/karaoke/etc track. :(
 
Xpred said:
Exactly. I want to make it sound as professional as possible. So I've come here to learn the techniques and what steps I must do because quite frankly my prior knowledge and the steps I've been using before doesn't cut it. So teach me, wise Jedi's of the sound. What should I do to bring out the vocals/make them with what I have right now into the karaoke/instrumental mix I have/

I'm going to borrow an expression from Southside Glen that pretty much sums up what you're asking. I know these aren't his exact words, but the idea is basically the same;

I'm interested in getting married and having children. Unfortunately, I haven't been on any dates yet. Can someone explain to me the whole "opposite sex" thing? Thanks.

Or I'll give you yet another analogy:

I'm interested in physics, and I was wondering if anyone could teach me the principles of physics (?) so I came here to learn. Could someone just really quickly jot them down for me in a post? I had science class in Junior High, so I should be a quick study. Thanks.

What you've got are Karaoke tracks that were most likely recorded by experiened people in a studio environment. The reason your tracks aren't fitting in is because they're way out of place. You have ZERO skill and knowlege in recording (Very obvious from the questions you're asking that you don't even have the most rudimentary understanding of audio). Your equipment probably sucks compared to the equipment used in the recording of the karaoke tracks, and the environment you're tracking in is a very far cry from the controlled accoustic and recording environment used to track the music.

What you're essentially asking how to do is "How to be a good recording engineer." And the answer to that question is very multi-faceted and complex. Far too much to cover than can possibly be stated in this thread. The answer is to get reading ... get studying ... get practicing. You could try finding a mentor or interning at a studio ... get a formal education or read some books on tracking and mixing, etc. etc.

You might be reading this and thinking; "Yea, but I just want to know how to make them BETTER. You're not listening to me Chessrock ... I'm not asking how to be a recording engineer; just how to improve on my current skills."

And my answer to you is ... There's nothing I can do over here, reading your post on my computer screen in Chicago. None of us can help you from where we're at. We don't have the advantage of being in your environment or the ability to access your session and experiment with it. You're biting off a lot more right now than you might be willing to chew, and you're basically taking up space on our forum ... so you might just want to accept and embrace your limitations and just be happy with the quality you're currently getting for now. That would be my advice. Good luck.
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Xpred said:
Ah, yes... would there be any way then to perhaps manipulate or simulate a good sound with the vocals with my instrumental tracks? Or would I ultimately have to look at my music track and determine it? The question is I don't know, given what I have, would be the best and most recommended way of only mixing vocals into already a stereo instrumental/karaoke/etc track. :(

Not *look* at your instrumental tracks... *listen* to them. Get your head in between the speakers and listen for individual instruments. If you hear an individual instrument only on one side, then there's hope. The instruments are panned to one side, and there's room in the middle for your vocal. If, however, you hear the same instruments on both sides, then the process becomes more complicated.

Now, let's presume the instruments are panned to the sides in your K-tracks (K for karaoke). Then you put your k-track into your software, record your vocal as a single mono track, process the vocal (more on this later), put it in the middle, and mix the k-track with the vocal.

Processing the vocal... getting the vocal to sound like the k-track, or at least closer. This will take quite a bit of experimentation using the room effects I wrote about earlier. Apply an effect to the vocal, mix with the k-track, listen to the mix. Don't like it? Go back, apply a different room effect, mix and listen. After several tries, you'll be able to eliminate certain effects that are obviously wrong. You'll narrow down the number of effects that might get you close. Finally, you'll narrow it down to one, or two. Then, you can tweak those effects a little and try again. Eventually, you will find something that will give you the best result possible. With the hundreds of possible effects settings, you're going to find something that will get you close.
 
A lot of it has to do with your signal chain. When I used my Octava condenser mic, my vocals always sounded like they were in a "cave"? (atleast thats what everyone else said). When I got my U87, they came out loud, clear, and you really don't have to use any effects on it at all, except for compression of course.
 
My thoughts are:

1 start simply. Record a single mono track for your vocals.
2 don't worry about compression or other effects yet.
3 listen to this track carefully by itself and see whether it stands up in its own right.
4 you may hear things that are displeasing: room noise, room artefacts, distortion, signal path noise and so on. You may be able to fix some of these things, while others may only be fixable with a considerable investment.
5 decide what you can live with and get the best you can with this.
6 place the mono track dead centre in the mix
7 from here on in, it is down to you, because you need to be able to hear what EQ modification, what level of compression or what amount and type of reverb is needed to make the vocal sit properly.
8 as others have said, you will find it difficult to replicate a level of quality equivalent to that of well-equipped professional studios.
 
theboy said:
without meaning to hijack too much, does anyone know any good freeware analysis plugins that would help with the sort of thing thats going on in that tutorial?

thakns

Voxegno "SPAN"
 
anyone can do it...

I disagree with all the masters that have said you can't reach a pro-like sound, comparable to your karaoke tracks.. After years experiencing with this and that I finally reached a very simple recipie to get clean, crystal clear vocals over karaoke recordings:
1.- first thing is a condenser microphone, this is essential
2.- second key thing is a vocal compressor, I use an small one from presonus, the COMP16 model, I take the third preset, there's a huge difference recording with and without it; by using it you can get vocals in front of your face..
3.- it doesn't matter if you record mono or stereo, or if you use a mixer console or an USB interface... just get a pair of headphones and enjoy recording several takes...
4.- once recorded, master your vocal track
4.1.- apply EQ, always using a small Q (<1), cut between -4 and -6dB in the range of 100-300 Hz, centering in 180, do the same in the band of 1000-3000 centering in 1800 and finally boost 3 to 6 dB in the band of 12,000 to 15,000 centering in 13,500 Hz. Hear a bit of your track after each step and decide if you have to undo the last operation. You should get no more "muddy" or "nasal" or dead vocals...
4.2 apply reverb, I prefer to use the Medium Concert Hall (warm) or Stereo Plate or Vocal Chamber (Warms)
4.3 apply dynamics compression, here I've found the Izotope Ozone plug in very useful, I like the "vocal compressor" preset, although if you don't have it, try the 12db softlimit preset in Audition
5.-Mix the karaoke and the vocal tracks
5.1 prepare your karaoke by reducing the amplitude in -14 dB
5.2 prepare your vocal track by normalizing it to 100% (use the normalize preset) and then reducing it in -11 dB, this ensures that your vocal will float slightly over the karaoke track, naturally, as if both were recorded at the same time..
5.3 mixdown both tracks to an empty track
6.- master your mix
6.1 normalize your mix to 100%, revise that vocal is not exaggerated as compare to the music, if so, erase that mixdown, get back and reduce your vocal 1 or 2 dBs and redo the mixdown process..
6.2 hear your mix and determine if extra "punch" is needed to compete with commercial CDs
6.3 if so, use the Audition Hard Limiter preset, although again I prefer (by far!) the Izotope's Ozone Intelligent Maximizer
7.- At this point in time you should have a very competitive, clear mixing, but watch out, still you need to perform an small trick, consisting in normalizing your mix to 98%, otherwise your CD burner will cut several dBs (up to 6!!) at the time of burning it.
8.- Burn and enjoy your CD


P.S. You have no idea of what I suffered to get to this point, I have bought things I don't need, I have damaged equipment, etc., but as the intention of "Home Recording" is to enjoy over everything else (including making money out of it), I'm happy 'cause I can record myself and others with a decent quality...
 
MTY_MEX said:
I disagree with all the masters that have said you can't reach a pro-like sound, comparable to your karaoke tracks.. After years experiencing with this and that I finally reached a very simple recipie to get clean, crystal clear vocals over karaoke recordings:
1.- first thing is a condenser microphone, this is essential
2.- second key thing is a vocal compressor, I use an small one from presonus, the COMP16 model, I take the third preset, there's a huge difference recording with and without it; by using it you can get vocals in front of your face..
3.- it doesn't matter if you record mono or stereo, or if you use a mixer console or an USB interface... just get a pair of headphones and enjoy recording several takes...
4.- once recorded, master your vocal track
4.1.- apply EQ, always using a small Q (<1), cut between -4 and -6dB in the range of 100-300 Hz, centering in 180, do the same in the band of 1000-3000 centering in 1800 and finally boost 3 to 6 dB in the band of 12,000 to 15,000 centering in 13,500 Hz. Hear a bit of your track after each step and decide if you have to undo the last operation. You should get no more "muddy" or "nasal" or dead vocals...
4.2 apply reverb, I prefer to use the Medium Concert Hall (warm) or Stereo Plate or Vocal Chamber (Warms)
4.3 apply dynamics compression, here I've found the Izotope Ozone plug in very useful, I like the "vocal compressor" preset, although if you don't have it, try the 12db softlimit preset in Audition
5.-Mix the karaoke and the vocal tracks
5.1 prepare your karaoke by reducing the amplitude in -14 dB
5.2 prepare your vocal track by normalizing it to 100% (use the normalize preset) and then reducing it in -11 dB, this ensures that your vocal will float slightly over the karaoke track, naturally, as if both were recorded at the same time..
5.3 mixdown both tracks to an empty track
6.- master your mix
6.1 normalize your mix to 100%, revise that vocal is not exaggerated as compare to the music, if so, erase that mixdown, get back and reduce your vocal 1 or 2 dBs and redo the mixdown process..
6.2 hear your mix and determine if extra "punch" is needed to compete with commercial CDs
6.3 if so, use the Audition Hard Limiter preset, although again I prefer (by far!) the Izotope's Ozone Intelligent Maximizer
7.- At this point in time you should have a very competitive, clear mixing, but watch out, still you need to perform an small trick, consisting in normalizing your mix to 98%, otherwise your CD burner will cut several dBs (up to 6!!) at the time of burning it.
8.- Burn and enjoy your CD


P.S. You have no idea of what I suffered to get to this point, I have bought things I don't need, I have damaged equipment, etc., but as the intention of "Home Recording" is to enjoy over everything else (including making money out of it), I'm happy 'cause I can record myself and others with a decent quality...

Let's hear some of your stuff :cool:
 
I don't care if some don't believe it can help, my intention was to provide a guide to others with something that can be followed time after time and then develop their own flavours and procedures... I don't mind of chessrock thinks my work is bullshit, I do not do this for living, but for my own entertainment and for other people to be happy..

let me reproduce here parts of what I read in other post (that curiously was sent to chessie:

"Have to disagree with you. Let people sing if they want to. Many are not out to be stars or virtuosos or divas--they are just having fun and fun is a big synonym with MUSIC...

So, those who have a home studio want to do the best they can. If you have a pro studio and you tell your clients to take a walk because you don't like their voices, well, you won't be in business very long. Your job is to record and make the talent sound as good as possible with the gear you have at hand...

Chessie, I think that you have forgotten that music is primarily fun, pro or amateur"
 
Best suggestion youve made..

What a fucking crock of bullshit.

I think I'm going to go kill myself now.
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Wow Chessrock
I was so set back by your responses to someone looking for advice that I actually took the time to setup an account here, just to respond. You have got to be.The most rude person I've seen yet on a forum that wasn't a straight out troll. You weren't born a professional. You had to start somewhere. Your ignorant responses are not only repulsive, but people like you make others not even want to get into music. I own a small home recording studio and have taken my tracks to to a pro studio and been complimented on what I was able to produce at home. A good Mic. Best advice I've been given. Effects...a little goes a long way. Learn to EQ your room, that helps. Instead of responding in such a puss negative way...why not just offer "beginner advice" or have you forgotten your beginnings?
 
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