How to make second verse and chorus different than the first?

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marc32123

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Right now I have my song completed up to the end of the first chorus. I know songs just repeat the same music from the first verse and chorus into the second verse and chorus. My song is a piano song and I actually am just going to copy and paste all the music from the first verse and chorus into the second (it has two pianos, a string, 2 choir parts and a drumbeat) instead of replaying everything. I know with some songs it is probably not a good idea to copy and paste, like if it was a guitar song it would sound way to repetitive (cause a guitar is always quite a bit different sounding even if the same chords are being played). With a song like mine though, it doesn't really matter two much because with a piano, it's not like a guitar. The only thing that could be that much different is the volume (from how hard you strike the keys) and somewhat the timbre if it is a high quality sampled piano sound you are using. Well, plus the timing to I guess...

For what my song is though, I don't really think I need to replay everything. Like I said, I am just going to copy and paste all the music (*not vocals though) from the first verse and chorus into the second verse and chorus.

I am wondering though, does anyone have any ideas as to what I could do to make it sound different from the first verse and chorus. I know new vocals will make it different, but I want something more than just new vocals. I was thinking about putting a guitar in it. Does anyone have any ideas? I think with an extra instrument or something it would give it a whole different flavor and make it not sound repetitive at all. probably wouldn't even hardly be able to tell it was copy and pasted...
 
My humble opinion is that is the lazy way.

Part of what makes a song good is the build. The best way is to actually play it.
Piano is such a dynamic expressive instrument. Seeing how it is a piano song. Id give it all you got. Build it up and put some passion into it.

Sure you can add more instruments along the way. But the lead instrument is the piano. Dont cheap it out.


My .02 cents for free. :-)
 
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I agree with the above.
Playing the thing again should automatically give you what you want because you should instinctively play it differently.
More expression, louder, great tension, whatever...that's 99% of it.

Other ideas, add harmonies, alter the main melody slightly, add strings, add an additional melody on single note keys or picked acoustic, add shakers, tambourines, a light kit..
There are endless ways to keep things interesting. :)
 
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Yup, what they^^^ said. Play the whole thing thorugh. Multiple times. You can comp together the best pieces of each take, if necessary, and/or even copy sections that are 'better played'. You're just being lazy now.
As to the arrangement. Start with the piano. Add other instruments in 1st chorus, bring in the guitar for verse 2, etc - build up the sound. get it all arranged (in your head) before you start tracking, it'll come together much better.
 
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marc32123 said:
Right now I have my song completed up to the end of the first chorus.
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I have to say...it's puzzling to me how a song can be "completed "...up to the end of the first chorus...???
Don't get me wrong, I understand exactly what you are doing to get to that situation....I'm just talking about the act and the art of *songwriting* should be separate, and come before you start recording and mixing.
But that's just me.......... :)


marc32123 said:
I am wondering though, does anyone have any ideas as to what I could do to make it sound different from the first verse and chorus.
Click to expand...

Yeah...don't copy/paste from the first verse and chorus. ;)
 
I use copy and paste to build the structure and then try to record me playing along with the whole thing for keeper tracks. I don't always get round to the latter part, though!
 
You could play the piano slightly different - break up some previous long notes, hold out some 8th notes, things like that.

Maybe even interplay the sound and notes with the context of the vocals. Or use the piano to add some light padding on the 2nd verse. Or heavy padding, depending on the tune.

'Course, I'm no song writer, I just kinda seriously goof-off with a guitar.

Daryl
 
I like to copy/paste when I'm still writing the song, but when it comes to recording, it sounds better if you play each part by itself: even with MIDI, there's enough random variation in timing, velocity, etc. that the listener will pick up on (if only subconsciously), even if both parts have the same notes. It's hard to add that kind of thing in post-production.

That said, I generally keep the same chord progression in the second chorus, but add some different fills or voicings. I also like to substitute chords, such as Em for G, or Am7 for C. If the song has room (i.e. you don't already have lots of instruments playing), then adding a pad or another supportive instrument is another classic move. Basically, do the same thing you did for the first chorus, but do it differently enough that it's still interesting.
 
Hi, I think what you are describing is actually more related in many ways to "producing" than it is to "mixing", and that's ok. I use the copy/paste method you are describing above to help me with songwriting and arranging, and to me, this is one of the coolest things about all this great DAW technology we have at our disposal these days. As a songwriter, you can now move parts around, add things, change things, double things, and maybe most important of all - you can cut things out, and all of it is reversible if you don't like the results. It's a fantastic composition tool for writers, producers, and arrangers. So, all that said, I would experiment like crazy. Just save your base tracks so you can always go back.

Here are some more specific things that might help too:

  • Change the drums and make sure they develop and keep adding interest over the course of the song - Start with a simple beat, or even just with hi hats, or brushes, or kick/rimshot instead of kick/snare - then in the 2nd verse bring in a little more snare, or switch from hat to ride, or whatever - also be sure to add some fills and/or transitions on the drums to get you from verse to chorus, and back again. Just having one drum beat from start to end is really boring. Listen to some of your favorite tunes, or ones that you'd like this to sound like to get some ideas, and spend the time to make the drums great, it will really be worth it
  • Adding other instruments in verse 2 is a great idea - try adding a simple guitar melodic accent that repeats with variations at the end of each line, or bring in an organ pad, or if you only have piano, try bringing in another texture or rhythm with the piano, maybe an octave up or down, maybe something that is counterpoint timing to your main part - a repetitive drone part that is very rhythmic can also be cool too and add a feeling of build and tension - for instance, if your chords are changing from C to F to G, just playing an octave part in the high register on octave Cs on quarter notes might be cool, who knows? Just try out some things - but it's always a good rule to keep it simple!
  • Panning - if you are adding additional parts as per above, either other instruments, or more piano, etc - try panning the parts away from your main piano part. Even though I said above that this seems more like production than mixing, there are definitely some things you can do in the mix to add interest between parts, and panning is one of them. Another one is...
  • Volume automation - how about very subtly bringing up the volume during your chorus, maybe only by 0.5dB or 1.0dB - this could also add some interest and perceived power to the chorus and draw contrast between the chorus and the verse - just don't make it obvious, this is one of those things you want people to feel but not hear
  • Cut, cut, cut - It's possible that if you cut from your first verse, and then put back what you cut into your second verse, that might get you 90% of the way to what you are looking for. As a simple example, if you are playing a left hand bass part on the piano, try taking that out of verse one, and only adding back in verse two. If you combine something like that with a drum change (simple drums in V1 and more in V2), this could add a ton of interest. Along the same lines, one of the things I like to do with my tunes is to cut my choruses in half the first time you hear them, so the first chorus will only repeat the chorus progression/melody once, and then end. Oftentimes to me when I first do this it sounds like it's only half of the chorus, and it sounds strange - it can take some getting used to, but like most editing, if you are ruthless in your cutting, and then you listen back to it, you will get used to it, and in most cases it will make the song more powerful, and also make the build more interesting, since you will reveal the rest of the chorus to your listener later - you are essentially keeping some cards up your sleeve to make the song more interesting as it goes on :)

These are just ideas. You hear it all the time, and it's true, there are no hard and fast rules, if it sounds good it is good, so experiment and have fun!

Dave DeWhitt
https://www.youtube.com/user/midnightmusemedia
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Just play the fricken thing through.
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Again this^^^^^

Some of us on this thread have been trying to hammer that point through.

While the tools available are great, they are nonproductive in developing songwriting skills.
There is a huge difference between a musician and songwriter and a programmer.

Doing all this stuff in the computer may be called "PRODUCING" but you're really just a programmer, just not working with code.

Play the music.

Just as many have lost the skill of writing with pen to paper because everything is done on a keyboard.......
Many have, and will, continue to lose the skill of manually playing music.

The tools are great stuff, but losing an art is almost tragic.

Play the music.
 
Add a different synth layer really low in the background. I don't know what the song sounds like so I can't really tell you what to do creatively. Play a different lead over it. Different drum feel. Mute the rhythm guitars. Just do something to it. It'll be different.
 
I guess I should clarify what my point was. I'm not saying use copy and paste to build a song, I'm saying a DAW can be a good tool for working on arrangements and composition and production during the writing phase. To me, that's really the point of the original question - how can the OP make the 2nd verse different than the first. By all means, when you actually have the composition nailed and the parts figured out, play the parts top to bottom all in one take. Put together a whole band and play all the parts in one take. Whatever. But until then, spend a little time on the craft of writing, composition, and arrangement. Whether it's in the DAW, or whether it's sitting at a piano banging out parts and trying different things. In my opinion, doing it in the box is just easier and allows for more creative options, which is a good thing. It's just a tool, after all.
 
Yeah, I got your intention of your post.
No disagreements with it being a worthwhile tool.

Just comnenting on the issues of people getting lazy. Depending on technology rather than songwriting and performance skill.

There's the old saying. Use it or lose it.

:-)
Technology is cool unless it erodes other skills.
 
If you play it through you're not stuck with anything but it may give you ideas of how to change the later choruses or if it even needs it.
 
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