How To Check : Listening Room Frequency Response is Balanced ?

[ecc83]

Thanks! It's Front Port Monitors so, it doesn't matter to as close to the front wall? In fact, it supposed to created the FAKE LOW when get closer to the wall if it's REAR Ported Speakers, am I correct? So, in my case, fine to be seated right in front of the front wall?

So, i'm good to Mix now?

No, I have asked about this before (coz I don't know!) but no one seemed qualified to jump in?

The port, whether front, back or side passive radiator is only inches from the cone. No distance at all at the frequencies of interest, say below 60Hz?

60Hz has a wavelength of 18feet so even a pretty big monitor will still effectively be a 'point source' and therefore Omni-directional. The cone and port(s) are integrated within that point source.

So yes, having a speaker close to a boundary WILL affect the LF response but I cannot see, from first principles, that it matters a.f. WHERE the port is?

Dave.

 

[mixsit]

No, I have asked about this before (coz I don't know!) but no one seemed qualified to jump in?

The port, whether front, back or side passive radiator is only inches from the cone. No distance at all at the frequencies of interest, say below 60Hz?

60Hz has a wavelength of 18feet so even a pretty big monitor will still effectively be a 'point source' and therefore Omni-directional. The cone and port(s) are integrated within that point source.

So yes, having a speaker close to a boundary WILL affect the LF response but I cannot see, from first principles, that it matters a.f. WHERE the port is?

Dave.

I concur. Did the searches on 'rear ports can't be close to the wall (or more specifically why they shouldn't. Up shot was just not so close that it restricts the air flow. (inches

 

[garww]

Well, searches can be more abstract;

nearfield monitor port placement

nearfield monitor front port vs rear port

mike senior monitor port


Shouldn't you already know about ports anyway ? And Passive Radiators ?

Why do I and others have non-ported ? hahah

 

[jimmys69]

Well, searches can be more abstract;

nearfield monitor port placement

nearfield monitor front port vs rear port

mike senior monitor port


Shouldn't you already know about ports anyway ? And Passive Radiators ?

Why do I and others have non-ported ? hahah

This is again getting redundant. The reason you and many other have 'non-ported' is because that is what you have purchased.

'Haha!' Whatever. I am personally tiring of your odd postings that are not relevant sir. Ugh...

Whatever works for you is what works for you. There is no way to tell unless one tries.

I personally never understood the need to keep rear ported speakers off the wall or whether placement makes a difference in that respect. I have built many bass guitar rig and folded horn type PA Subwoofer speakers myself and the idea is to tune the cabinet for the speaker to obtain the best results from the low frequency driver. It doesn't like throw out sound that is crucial to what you hear in my understanding. It is just intended to optimize the driver's ability to produce low end in a small enclosure. The ports react to what the driver is doing by relieving pressure and allowing the cone to move freely within it's limits. It just doesn't make sense to place any speaker directly against a wall whether front or rear port. It not the port placement that is the issue.

I call bullshit on rear ported monitors against wall being the issue. No speaker should ever be directly against a wall.

My ADAM A7X are front ported. Not that it even matters. The proof is in how they work in any given room. In my case they are 3.5' from the treated back wall because I have that ability.

I know what a 10x8' room sounds like even with acoustic treatment. It sucks. But it can be done.

 

[garww]

"There is no way to tell unless one tries".

There you go

 

[Lt. Bob]

lol ..... first, stuffing ports is not that weird an idea and some VERY expensive speakers come with plugs for their ports for that very purpose.
Secondly, yes it's true that you can do nothing to fix room problems by doing various things to your speakers or moving them around but you can still make them sounbd the very best they can in that room.

There's nothing nonsensical about stuffing ports or hanging something over a tweeter to tame an aggressive top end.No .... it's not ideal but we are, as has been said, a home recording site and home made DIY solutions are entirely appropriate.

Not everyone has the time, money, resources to do major room treatment.
I have been recording prolly longer than almost anyone here with a few exceptions and I have never done ANY room treatment to any of my rooms.
Now, they have all had thousands of records on shelves all around the room which is a fairly decent room treatment.

But I simply don't buy into the "If your room is not treated then there's no point in recording because it can't be good" argument.

 

[ecc83]

No Bob, stuffing ports is not a 'weird' idea but it is a bit random in its effect.
Those ported speakers that come with plugs are a ***t or bust conversion. The bung (afaik) closes off the port and converts the speaker to an IB. It is likely that the designers took this into consideration, maybe advised a different EQ setting on the monitor?

Ad hoc, 'leaky' stuffing will simply add resistance to the port and the results will be subject to the density of the stuffing! To me, the whole PURPOSE of a monitor is that it is a 'standard' . The speaker is, we trust, as good a reference as the designers can make it (subject to price of course). If we start effing about with them, all the rules go out the window. You would not I hope just Jodrell about with the bias setting of a tape machine in the hope it would sound 'better'?

Talk of 'room treatment' is peculiar to the last decade or so. I grew up with the growth of hi fi reproduction. I had the magazines (good ones then!) and absorbed the technology. Much was written about all aspects of top line reproduction but I do not ever recall anyone suggesting we TREAT our listening rooms! This I believe is because of the way recordings were made back then and the material that was being recorded.

To take material first: Virtually 100% ACOUSTIC instruments. Record companies were busy recording the top classical orchestras and dance bands/jazz. In the first instance, especially for classical, they found rooms, often concert halls and town halls, that sounded 'good'. As the Record Co's got bigger and richer it was vastly more convenient to make a purpose built room and have the musicians come to them. Thus, the 'Recording Studio! was born!
The point of all this preamble is that the recording/mixing engineers would, BY DEFAULT balance the music to suit domestic spaces..Cos THAT'S where they lived! Ergo, domestic rooms did not NEED treatment because the music 'suited' them.

The how is fairly obvious? Almost all live takes and the musicians largely sorted the balance.

Keeping it simple for the noob. Absolutely! The most important thing for her/him to know is that there is a difference between the room you DO recording in and the room you monitor/mix/balance in. If you are just recording vocals, acoustic guitar flute ....You really don't need to worry about bass trapping. Nothing to trap. If you are recording a double bass or a piano, you do! A lot of folks record the middle frequency parts acoustically then DI the bass or MIDI in a keyboard. Now! When you come to monitor that you need a room with as flat a bass response as possible so now you need trapping. Or, if you really know your stuff, the room and the monitors you can make allowances.

The dislike for ported speakers stems not from a ragged response (if they are any good!) but from the potentially poorer transient response of the reflex system. 'Bass hangover' it is often dubbed. This is usually caused by designers of the cheaper monitors attempting to get more bass per buck in a smaller than optimum enclosure. Considering the staggering amount of work done in the theory and maths* of 'ported boxes' by Richard H Small and others it is a poor show to dismiss the reflex principle out of hand. It CAN be made to work very, very well.

*And yes, 95% of it is beyond me!

Dave.

 

[garww]

I'd say programmers, designers and design engineers, etc.. don't always know what they are doing. Many have to tow the line.

Right now in Arizona, I have 3) ported and 3) acoustic suspension. I had never considered port stuffing, 'til I wanted to see if I could mix on $20 Creative 2.1 3-piece set. hahah That is all I had when I got to Arizona. Usually, I do bass with placement, but so much of the range was in the Sub box.

 

[jimmys69]

I'd say programmers, designers and design engineers, etc.. don't always know what they are doing. Many have to tow the line.

Right now in Arizona, I have 3) ported and 3) acoustic suspension. I had never considered port stuffing, 'til I wanted to see if I could mix on $20 Creative 2.1 3-piece set. hahah That is all I had when I got to Arizona. Usually, I do bass with placement, but so much of the range was in the Sub box.

They likely know what they are doing and have good reason to do so. In the $500 and under range they are creating speakers in small boxes that appeal to those that want a shit ton of low end from cheap speakers. Their goal is not to make their users rooms sound accurate, it is to sell their product. They are doing their job.

What is out of the equation here is the ability of the guy using the monitors and his experience with them in any particular room. Those that have experience know how to deal with limitations. Noobs likely will struggle.

In the end, advising those new to recording from members with more experience is a great thing. It what this site is all about. Even if we disagree, it is all worthy. Well, unless it is nonsense...

 

[garww]

If all I want is 50 to 15k, I can be quite happy. So, I stay happy.

All many of us had for a long time was a bass sweep on a old(1969) TYA album;

I forgot what LP it was on and found a Finn about 7-years ago who set me straight

 

[witzendoz]

Gee there is a lot of bad advice in this thread, shopping bags, toilet paper, EQ's on the monitors. This stuff does not fix a bad room, I hop no Newbie reads this and follows any of this advice.

So speaker manufacturers design monitors, then run many many hours of testing so that someone can stuff the port full of shopping bags or put a EQ on them to fix the sound, Spare Me!

The toilet paper thing reminded me of this



Except that in this case the room is the turd.



Alan.

 

[jimmys69]

Gee there is a lot of bad advice in this thread, shopping bags, toilet paper, EQ's on the monitors. This stuff does not fix a bad room, I hop no Newbie reads this and follows any of this advice.

So speaker manufacturers design monitors, then run many many hours of testing so that someone can stuff the port full of shopping bags or put a EQ on them to fix the sound, Spare Me!

The toilet paper thing reminded me of this

View attachment 100041

Except that in this case the room is the turd.



Alan.

Bad advice as well as good advice. None of that shizz will fix the room. Even high end expensive acoustic treatment will not 'fix' the room.

One has only to do what they can to make it work as best as they can. There is no 'cure' or 'remedy' for a small room with modes that kill it.

Just make the best of what you have and do what you can.

Yes, bass traps and first reflection points will help huge, but it is not an ideal space. Work with that and do what you have to do to make it work.

Obviously more expensive monitors will help. That is an obvious, but it doesn't mean that you can't get your mix on with less expensive ones.

I would suggest you take the time to purchase some cheapies that are recommended and make your own judgments for yourself. It will eventually be you who learns from your room. Not the guys here giving advice that have never been in yours.

 

[garww]

Not everyone needs treatment . I have two places that could use help, but I don't see it as screwing me up .

 

[witzendoz]

What I was saying is that room treatment goes a long way towards fixing the room, my control room is not big, and I run my studio as a part time client based studio, Bass traps, side broad band absorbers, ceiling clouds, hard floor, and rear defuser have made it a pretty accurate room now, and this is according to mastering engineers when we get external mastering done. There are no shopping bag, EQ, short cuts.

My control room 4.8 mtrs (15' 8") long x 3.4 (11' 3") wide x 2.5 mtrs (8' 2") high, monitors projecting down the long length of the room. I know that it is not always ideal an ideal room a home studio, but you can make it as good as you can.

Alan.

 

[jimmys69]

Not everyone needs treatment . I have two places that could use help, but I don't see it as screwing me up .

True for you maybe? But that isn't the point. You do seem to have a bunch of experience.

So why the attitude?

I wish that you would try to post helpful advice here. It seems more like you want the 'kids off your lawn' the way you are presenting yourself.

I would like it more if you were more proactive instead of negative in your reactions. Just what I am reading into your comments.

I could be reading into your posts wrong. But sometimes I find it hard to understand what you are saying at times...

 

[witzendoz]

True for you maybe? But that isn't the point. You do seem to have a bunch of experience.

So why the attitude?

I wish that you would try to post helpful advice here. It seems more like you want the 'kids off your lawn' the way you are presenting yourself.

I would like it more if you were more proactive instead of negative in your reactions. Just what I am reading into your comments.

I could be reading into your posts wrong. But sometimes I find it hard to understand what you are saying at times...

What???? I am just trying to make sure that newbies are not being mislead and their time wasted by bad information, "kids off the lawn", how proactive can I be? I have been giving useful information, why don't you read what I suggest instead of not wanting to hear what I have to say because it does not fit with what you have made up your mind to do.

What I say comes from years of experience, the building of 4 studios, and many mistakes made over the years. Yes, I have tried 90% of the things suggested that I tell you it does not work, I learned the hard way. Why is it negative when I just say what I know won't work? Where is this attitude you are talking about? I put the Turd thing in as a bit of light humour, sorry if it offends you I did not mean it that way.

Alan.

 

[jimmys69]

What???? I am just trying to make sure that newbies are not being mislead and their time wasted by bad information, "kids off the lawn", how proactive can I be? I have been giving useful information, why don't you read what I suggest instead of not wanting to hear what I have to say because it does not fit with what you have made up your mind to do.

What I say comes from years of experience, the building of 4 studios, and many mistakes made over the years. Yes, I have tried 90% of the things suggested that I tell you it does not work, I learned the hard way. Why is it negative when I just say what I know won't work? Where is this attitude you are talking about? I put the Turd thing in as a bit of light humour, sorry if it offends you I did not mean it that way.

Alan.

Dood, that was directed to garww... Not you at all. Look at who I quoted in post 55

 

[witzendoz]

Dood, that was directed to garww... Not you.

Opps, Sorry!

 

[garww]

No, no reason for treatment over here. Maybe if I had a customers and needed to tidy up : ) My right speaker is pushed back now to make room for keyboards and it is a mini corner horn for bass. Do you know the difference in bass character with ported and acoustic suspension ? Its a monster with them both RSL 2600 on the wall. . I'm just playing the bass trip, for fun, right now - the little tannoy will be back.

When the room has half empty, the right side window got 4-layers of baby blanket/ But there is a 4-foot wide rack of gear in front of it now. That's been about it

Now, I mix bass and the mud on my fones. That is what I bought them for .

No, monitors are about the only thing I recommend freshmen put their money into

 

[jimmys69]

No, no reason for treatment over here. Maybe if I had a customers and needed to tidy up : ) My right speaker is pushed back now to make room for keyboards and it is a mini corner horn for bass. Do you know the difference in bass character with ported and acoustic suspension ? Its a monster with them both RSL 2600 on the wall. . I'm just playing the bass trip, for fun, right now - the little tannoy will be back.

When the room has half empty, the right side window got 4-layers of baby blanket/ But there is a 4-foot wide rack of gear in front of it now. That's been about it

Now, I mix bass and the mud on my fones. That is what I bought them for .

No, monitors are about the only thing I recommend freshmen put their money into

I really wish you would quote a comment you are replying to....

I feel you have much to offer, but your posts seem to be a bit off directed with obtuse triangular manifestations that are hard to signify with bigly words. > Just a test to see if he is actually reading the posts he responds to.