Har-Bal download anyone?

[flatfinger]

hey flatfinger, you gonna Bogart that big honkin' spliff? . Man, what a wild post! (the actual gist of which I agree with, BTW )

Wait till I post stone cold sober ;

If you haven't got the ear to EQ something manually and not need something like a hairball, how can you possibly have the ear to know if/when you or your software actually does hit the jackpot? And conversely, if you do have the ear to know, then why in God's name would you want to waste your time yanking the one armed bandit of something like hairball?

Chickens and eggs ; which crossed the road first ??

I think allot of laymen can tell when something sounds extraordinary, I mean that's why I kept buying all those steely dan records back when a A four-track mini studio cost so much that I did'nt dream I could afford one . I still knew which records made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. ( as opposed to "hair balling!)

I think it takes a tremendous, way underappreciated amount of time an effort to be trully skilled on the "otherside of the speaker". I'm with you;................ the Idea of a slot machine " sound helper" is ludirus.....Did'nt I point out from the start that it was a weak analogy ??? I saw a gentleman start a thread the other day (elsewhere) asking where he could find more pre-sets for Izotope Ozone !!!!! Even eliminating the module order , the mind still boggles at the infinitesimal chances of all those variables aligning to the source material.

In another thread a member asks if it's strange that he doesn't EQ his guitar tracks. What's strange to me is that that question even needs to be asked. It's only strange to skip EQ if your tracks will benefit from it's use. How else can you answer that question? What nobody wants to ever come out and say is that if you have to ask if a track needs EQ, you shouldn't be doing the mixing

I don't know .... I always felt sorry for the few odd teachers or instructors in the classroom situations I've been who insisted on maintaining the "no question is a stupid question " rule in effect . Inevitably some laggart is going to have you re-explain chapter one concepts whilst your busy lecturing on chapter ten !!

Im kinda hungry, so it's time for another one of my patented (US Patent #12744978) cooking analogies. If you can't tell what tastes "right" and what doesn't, you shouldn't be cooking.

G.

You do have to crack a few eggs before you can make an omelete.



I"m not privy to the sincerity levels of software devs ( nor anyway to verify them ) ; But I do think those dsp geeks mean well . It's up to the individual to survey the scene and try to focus on genuine techniques .

I know that when you were coming up , ( resisting the temptation to make references to the jurassic era!!!! Cause that's me too !! ) there were less whiz bang amazing computer thingy distractions , so you pretty much had to sit there sweeping away with your ( THANKFULLY ANALOG) eq and if you did'nt train your ear , you were'nt getting into any studio for long. ( and no , you could'nt play enginner at home in your free time either !)

I have Hugnormus respect for the crumudgeny A.E.'s out there , but I like some of the new technology that's afoot these days too.( poor me ,; I missed out on fooling with tape deck repair and maintenance)

So I guess the newbs ( like me still , cause I know that there's lot's I don't know !!) are going to potentially have allot more distractions and potential blind allies to go up. I guess I'm just expressing MY opinion That HB was'nt the worst thing thats ever happend to me .

I was just trying to avoid the usual trainwreck on the subject of HB and say something positive ; It's not the first dsp thingy I'd be hoping to get my cabbage back on .( let's face it , as you're suggesting , there can be some real doosies out there)

But you are right . Better to concentrate on the tried and true , old school methodology and ignore much of the new fangled toys that are fraught with shiny distractions .(One exception of course for the RTA in WL ,zoomed to occupy the whole 2nd monitor!!!All those pretty colors...get's em every time !!)



Thanks for your web based resources and wisdom sharing activites. Just remember , for newbs and not as newbs like myself , the old adage could never be truer....... You can lead a wannabe A.E. to water ...BUT.............




Cheers

[SouthSIDE Glen]

But that's exactly what I don't get, finger; since when is having to have an ear for music "old school"? If anything, as the music styles mix and expand thanks to the global village we call the Inter-thingy, having that ear is probably more basic and important than ever.

Technology does not change the basics; technology has not made it so that a chef can cook without tastebuds (at least not well), or a running back run without "field awareness" (at least not well). And technology does not replace the need for a mix engineer to have "the ears" for it either.

I'm not saying that one should know the techniques right off the bat, that's unrealistic. Which is why these BBS are here...or at least should be; to help teach technique on *how* to do something. But for me personally, if someone needs to ask not how to do something, but what even needs to be done, there's nothing I (or anyone else) can do to help them.

G.

[flatfinger]

Always a pleasure to listen to your views .

I guess that the "gatekeeping " that was removed from the talent side ( from the viewpoint that it took someone to provide the venture capital before you got into the same zipcode as a recording studio) is also removed now from the engineering side .....Not making any value judgments on those developments ; Just that were in undiscoverd country here, so who knows what will become of it all .

So many trade schools. So many "placement " promises.

A very different world out there today . Would'nt want to be just starting out in anything right now . Except maybe software!!



Cheers

[dobro]

hey How else can you answer that question? What nobody wants to ever come out and say is that if you have to ask if a track needs EQ, you shouldn't be doing the mixing.

Or maybe you're learning how to mix. That's a valid activity, learning how to do something. I think it was you in an earlier post in either this thread or another one who said something like, regarding mixing: "there are those who get it, and those who don't". Well, whether it was you or somebody else who said, it was a two-dimensional comment. There are also those who are learning how to do it.

I'm kinda hungry, so it's time for another one of my patented (US Patent #12744978) cooking analogies. If you can't tell what tastes "right" and what doesn't, you shouldn't be cooking.

You can patent it, but don't expect to make a ton of money off it. People who enjoy mixing their own stuff and who are learning to do it better as time passes know you're just showing off.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

A very different world out there today . Would'nt want to be just starting out in anything right now . Except maybe software!!

As a long time software developer, I'd say be careful about what you wish for...or at least have a very well-funded VC sugar daddy watching your back . Otherwise it's next to impossible to compete for very long against the whole "open source" debacle.

Or maybe you're learning how to mix. That's a valid activity, learning how to do something. I think it was you in an earlier post in either this thread or another one who said something like, regarding mixing: "there are those who get it, and those who don't". Well, whether it was you or somebody else who said, it was a two-dimensional comment. There are also those who are learning how to do it.

First off, that wasn't me who said that...though I admit I easily could have. And there's nothing two dimensional about it when one understands it's true meaning, or at least actually read what the entire posts say.

*Of course* people need to learn how to mix. I just got through saying that it's unrealistic to expect otherwise, and that that's what these BBSs are for helping with. But before one learns how to mix, they had better know - as a prerequisite to the task - *what* to mix. You can't learn how to make something sound good if you don't know what "sound good" actually means, or can't identify why something sounds bad.

It's simple; if one needs to ask someone else whether something sounds good or not, they have no business being behind the mixing desk.

Real life is neither anarchy nor democracy. There is no such thing as a level paying field. Get over it. Certain avocations and vocations require certain inherent basic skills You can't be a baseball player if you throw like Mariah Carey, just like you can't be a singer if you sing like Carlos Zambrano. And you can't mix music if your ears can't tell you what needs mixing.

Can that be learned? For some, yes. For those, once they're learned, *then* and only then should they try to learn the *how* of mixing, because it's impossible to learn how to mix otherwise.

That's not anybody showing off; that's just someone telling the hard truth that folks who feel they were born with a sense of entitlement simply don't want to hear.

G.

[dobro]

As a long time software developer, I'd say be careful about what you wish for...or at least have a very well-funded VC sugar daddy watching your back . Otherwise it's next to impossible to compete for very long against the whole "open source" debacle.

First off, that wasn't me who said that...though I admit I easily could have. And there's nothing two dimensional about it when one understands it's true meaning, or at least actually read what the entire posts say.

*Of course* people need to learn how to mix. I just got through saying that it's unrealistic to expect otherwise, and that that's what these BBSs are for helping with. But before one learns how to mix, they had better know - as a prerequisite to the task - *what* to mix. You can't learn how to make something sound good if you don't know what "sound good" actually means, or can't identify why something sounds bad.

It's simple; if one needs to ask someone else whether something sounds good or not, they have no business being behind the mixing desk.

Real life is neither anarchy nor democracy. There is no such thing as a level paying field. Get over it. Certain avocations and vocations require certain inherent basic skills You can't be a baseball player if you throw like Mariah Carey, just like you can't be a singer if you sing like Carlos Zambrano. And you can't mix music if your ears can't tell you what needs mixing.

Can that be learned? For some, yes. For those, once they're learned, *then* and only then should they try to learn the *how* of mixing, because it's impossible to learn how to mix otherwise.

That's not anybody showing off; that's just someone telling the hard truth that folks who feel they were born with a sense of entitlement simply don't want to hear.

G.

Even if you were right (and I disagree with your black and white assessment of what is essentially a learning scale), I still wouldn't avail myself of your professional services cuz I don't support those who position themselves on the clever ground and look down on others. It ain't professional.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Even if you were right (and I disagree with your black and white assessment of what is essentially a learning scale), I still wouldn't avail myself of your professional services cuz I don't support those who position themselves on the clever ground and look down on others. It ain't professional.

In other words, if the phone doesn't ring I'll know it's you?

Not a problem; my phone and my e-mail are kept busy by folks who do get it.

BTW, stating facts is not "looking down" on anybody. It's simply stating facts. If you feel looked down upon because of that then perhaps you need to work on either your skill set or your self-esteem, because you're reading something into it that just isn't there.

It's simple; if one needs to ask someone else whether something sounds good or not, they have no business being behind the mixing desk.

There's no learning curve there. OK, perhaps there's a leaning curve in the critical listening/music appreciation end of it. And it's one which continuously develops as well - I'm still learning stuff every day. But mixing requires two things AS MINIMUM PREREQUISITES: the ability to trust one's own ears and tastes, and the ability to use ones own ears and tastes to determine if what they hear is what they want, and if it's not, how if differs from what they want.

Once again, it's quite simple: if one cannot do that yet, then they are like a blind man trying to judge a painting or a man with no taste buds trying to tell if their food tastes right. That's not judgmental, that's FACT.

It's also true that the two skills - listening and mixing - cannot be developed at the same time. One cannot mix until they can hear, therefore one cannot learn to mix before they have already learned to hear. It's necessarily a sequential process.

What does all this have to do with hair ball? Absolutely nothing. That's because har ball has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

If you are going to get pissed at folks like me, dobro, for laying out the truth, you have a long future of anger and unhappiness in front of you.The sooner you cowboy up and accept that this requires dedication and work and, yes, a basic starting skillset before you can pass Go and collect $200, the happier you'll be.

G.

[dobro]

In other words, if the phone doesn't ring I'll know it's you?

Exactly, and I'm glad you're cool with it, cuz I ain't bothered either. For one thing, I don't know you so you know it's not personal. For another thing, none of your customers are going to read this thread, and even if they do, who's gonna listen to me? lol

Not a problem; my phone and my e-mail are kept busy by folks who do get it.

Get what? Your point of view? Maybe they just recognize the value of your mixing chops. That doesn't mean they agree with your stance on this issue.

BTW, stating facts is not "looking down" on anybody. It's simply stating facts. If you feel looked down upon because of that then perhaps you need to work on either your skill set or your self-esteem, because you're reading something into it that just isn't there.

You're not stating facts. You're oversimplifying, doing that 'it's all so simple and black and white' thing that oversimplifiers do. Look, you said in a previous post here:

It *ALL* boils down to this, IMHO (and by ALL I mean basically this entire BBS)} either one is cut out to engineer music or they are not.

I'll argue this with you, cuz like I said before, it's a learning curve. I'm hearing stuff in my mixes these days that I wasn't hearing three years ago, and when I go back and listen to stuff I was doing nine years ago, it makes me wince. ("What the fuck was I doing tracking that hot and then squashing it with a compressor going in?")

It's simple; if one needs to ask someone else whether something sounds good or not, they have no business being behind the mixing desk.

Well, if enough people believe that, it's good for your kinda business, yeah, granted.

There's no learning curve there. OK, perhaps there's a leaning curve in the critical listening/music appreciation end of it. And it's one which continuously develops as well - I'm still learning stuff every day. But mixing requires two things AS MINIMUM PREREQUISITES: the ability to trust one's own ears and tastes, and the ability to use ones own ears and tastes to determine if what they hear is what they want, and if it's not, how if differs from what they want.

You know what I think about the learning curve thing. I'll add this: by comparing my impressions of my mixes with other people's impressions of my mixes, I learn. My ear's better now. Comparing notes with other people helped me get here. I'm really grateful to them, and I'm really respectful of the process.

If you are going to get pissed at folks like me, dobro, for laying out the truth, you have a long future of anger and unhappiness in front of you.The sooner you cowboy up and accept that this requires dedication and work and, yes, a basic starting skillset before you can pass Go and collect $200, the happier you'll be.

G.

Don't preach. You might even be able to learn something from lowlifes like me.

Finally, I really enjoyed what you said about the hairball - your stuff is a fun read. After reading what you and Massive said about it, I'd never buy one.

[SouthSIDE Glen]

If you're going to preach to me about my attitude, don't get on my case for what you see as preaching.

One thing I've recently learned is that I am tired of arguing in forums. Believe what you wish, whatever gets you though the day.

G.

[flatfinger]

I think that allot of long time A.E.'s have a right to have there back up a little these days . There is a flood a of dilettantes who think that this stuff is easy .
The technology has made it more accessible and affordable, but it is folly to think that experience still is'nt the best teacher.
My feeling is that this buisness of getting musical performances into a frozen time capsule so to speak has many ,many aspects .
It is unfortunate that the circumstances of the world have thrown the whole process into disarray.There are allot of newbs , and as usual , there are lots of class clowns within the crop.

I can't fault the basic logic behind Glens assertion that some modicum of raw talent needs to be there. However, although It's generally agreed that you can't play linebacker in the NFL if you don't have the size , speed and athletisism; there are those who have these attributes in spades, but lack the proper work ethic to properly apply them.
There are those who get it done with grit and determination when everyone else said they could'nt. Obviously , since glen might say I'm Imbibing for using such an analogy , let me say that the professions of pro football player and pro Audio Engineer are'nt even close ..... But I would assert that it's probably easier to rise above the odds against the difficulty curve in the audio profession.
You don't have as short window and you can afford to make more mistakes.


I would say that Dobro has already displayed what it takes in allmost every endeavor... not letting anyone tell you can't do it : determination! ( and I'm not saying glen specifically told dobro he was'nt able to do this .)

You just need to realize that it probably is'nt going to be easy ( most things in life are'nt , even for those born with the proverbial silver spoon ... just a different set of issues sometimes )
So always look to learn , learn from your mistakes , study , then study somemore . Read a f'ing book instead of wasting time on these forums ( like I'm doing .....do as I say , not as I do !!!






Cheers