Gain staging ....some missing pieces ....plz help

DevD

New member
I have been reading and watching stuff about gain staging have followed someone .....imported every instrument or let's say sounds from vsts at -12 db ( maximum peaking at -12), exported the mix at -6 (max peak at -6db)to -8 db and exported master at -0.1 db .... in the meter.RMS level it now shows is -10 to -12

Some questions
1)what level do you prefer
a)while playing and recording every sound from various vsts ? or input level
b) while exporting the mix ?
c) while exporting the master ?
even if you feel it is different for everyone or it depends on the type of music still plz give me some figures for an idea.

2) the limiter or compressor that we use in the mastering chain assure that there is no peaking about 0.0db.....now still should I look for the meter in the output track and keep the fader where it should not cross 0.0db ? I mean is it not so that even if I increase the fader to a limit that it starts showing peaking in the output track still it wont clip as there is a compressor or limiter put in the channel strip ? and how wd the position of the fader affect the sound ?

3) what is the appropriate RMS level that one should try to achieve in exact numbers.Can you assure a particular RMS level for every song or it varies from song to song.... ?

Thank you.
 
When tracking from the analog world, all of your gain staging decisions should be about getting as little noise as possible without unwanted distortion. It doesn't matter what the meters read as long as you don't clip your converters. If it's a little "too loud" or "too quiet", you have plenty of perfectly clean, flat, noiseless ways to adjust that once it's recorded.

In mixing the only meter that really matters is the one on whatever track you plan to render your mix from. Most times that'll just be the Master. As long as that doesn't hit 0, you can feel safe that your final fixed point render will be clean. You really kind of do want to "use all the bits" here though, especially if it's going to be mastered afterwards. This advice is contrary to common wisdom today, but I think if you're going to mess with the dynamic range later, you should provide as much as possible to work with. Push it up to almost 0. If your mastering engineer needs to turn it down, he will. Course, if you're rendering a mix to be mastered in a separate session, you could render to floating point, and it won't matter at all.

So... It's still nice to stay close to but not over 0 at your mix bus. It is true that you can usually adjust the mix bus fader to "fix" the level once the mix is good, but it turns out that if you set your track levels to average around -18, in most mixes, you probably won't have to adjust that bus fader as much. But it's still not really about the meters.

Here's what I do in a basic rock mix:
Rough in a mix of the drums and then push that up until the mix bus is hitting around 0 on really loud peaks. If that puts any of the track faders too far off from unity, I adjust the level at some point before the fader and reset it.

Then I bring the other instruments up until the mix sounds about right. If any of those faders end up way off from 0, I again go adjust something upstream. That's really just personal preference. On most mixers both analog and digital, you have more fine control right around unity. There's no sonic benefit to this in the box at all.

By now it might be hitting above 0 in places where the whole band hits hard together. That usually tells me that I need to put some work into controlling the dynamic range of individual tracks (especially drums, probably bass, definitely vocals), so I go back and do that. EQ, compression, saturation, automation, whatever it takes. We are sort of trying to get it to stop clipping without fucking up the mix too much, but at this point we're still not super worried about that meter. No matter what we do, there still maybe like one or two samples along the line where everything accidentally pushes the same direction at exactly the same time and it goes over.

Those things I consider to be part of mastering. If I'm doing an album, I'll render to 32bit FP at this point. If it's just a one-off, I just slap my mastering chain on, adjust as necessary, and render the final fixed point file.

So what happens in mastering? By this point, you really should be pretty close to what you want for dynamic range, but again you maybe have one or two big spikes, and I for one like just a little bit of "glue", a bit of "squshiness". So I add a slow RMS compressor doing almost nothing. It very subtly evens out the overall dynamic so that if the kick hits one beat alone and then the next with the bass, it's just that little bit less louder than it "should" be. When the guitar kicks into the loud chorus, the whole band is just a little closer to that quiet verse.

Then you start looking at your meters. Most of the time, we want our loudest peak to be about as loud as it can be - as close to 0 as we feel comfortable. I prefer -0.6 just out of habit. This is not so much to "use all the bits" as to "meet standards". Like, everybody else is that loud, and it's what your listeners tend to expect. But we also want our average levels to be in the ballpark of other similar tracks. Where that sits completely does depend on the individual mix, the genre, and expectations of the artist. So look at your meters and for the moment don't think about the actual value of either peak or RMS, but look at the difference between them.

If that "dynamic range" is right for your genre (and it sounds good!), then you just adjust the mix bus fader (or output of one of the plugs on the mix bus) until the loudest leak is wherever you decided you want it to be and go. If it's too big, but it sounds good, it's probably because of that one or two little spikes that we let slide before. You'll probably even see on playback that your leaks will sit at a certain level until one little place where it suddenly jumps way up. Here's where we try to knock those down. I personally won't use anything that calls itself a limiter for this. This is almost always just a sample of two, and anything with a time constant - attack, release, RMS, even oversampling - will be incapable of promising a consistent output level. I use a "curvy" saturation that works on a sample to sample basis and just won't let anything get louder than the ceiling I set. Adjust that ceiling to the loudest peak you want, and then adjust the level going into it until both your RMS and peaks are where you want them. If you can't do that without distorting the mix too much, then you need to go back a few steps and control the dynamics of individual tracks more tightly and/or adjust the mix bus compressor to squish things together a little better.

OTOH - if your dynamic range is too small, maybe the RMS compressor is doing to much, or else you'll have to go back to your individual tracks.

But you wanted specific numbers. Understand the DR numbers depend on everything in the mix, and RMS is measured over time, so how much time you're sampling makes a real difference. The last full rock album I mastered had integrated (full song) RMS ranging from -15 up to -9. The shortish song that was just balls to the walls came out overall loudest, but the quietest one is has long stretches of minimal, softer material and sudden bursts of things that are as loud or louder. Even if you're mixing square waves, the one that plays more often is going to have a higher integrated RMS.

So that probably raises about more questions, but you know, this topic has been beaten to death and back a number of times all over the Internet.
 
Thanks Ashcat_Lt....


It's so kind of you to elaborate on my question , I will read it again a couple of times, just one more question ..... when we use a vst and record something on a midi track..... pre fader .....what should be the input level ideally , is it so that we should take the full signal upto 0 db ? asking this as several guys have written that they keep their levels at -18 or -12 ,are they talking about pre fader or post fader levels ?? isn't it so that we should take every sound input upto 0 db to get in ample sound ....it can always be reduced later, isn't taking input of a sound at -12 db mean we are not opening as much door for the sound to come in as much is possible without clipping.......?they are talking about the level at which it is recorded or keeping the faders ideally there to start the mix ...... You can see I am a confused about a very basic concept but I have to shamelessly ask about it .... :) thank you.
 
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when we use a vst and record something on a midi track..... pre fader .....what should be the input level ideally
I honestly don't think it matters enough to argue about. It ultimately depends on the bit depth of whatever's coming out of the plugin. I think that with most nowadays, their output will be floating point like the DAWs mix engine, which would mean that it really doesn't matter at all. A plugin that somehow outputs a truncated or fixed-point signal, or one that deliberately adds a noise floor for whatever reason, it might make sense to try to "use all the bits", but really only if you intend to compress or distort it pretty heavily.

In most cases it's probably easiest to adjust the output of the synth itself to be where it needs to be in the mix when the track fader is at unity. Like I said above, if you don't know for sure what level that might be, -18db average is usually a pretty safe place to start.
 
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So what you are saying is in LPX if we select 'pre fader' , I should lower the output signal of the vst or the input signal of the track by 'VST's main volume knob' to the level where the meter of the selected midi track shows its peak at -18...
 
The -18dbfs comments are not peak levels. They are average levels. The sustain of a held out note would site around -18dbfs, while the peaks would bounce around above that.

Since you are dealing with VST's and you aren't going out into the analog world when you record the audio from them, the level simply doesn't matter. Even though it will make it a bit easier to mix, especially if you will be recording vocals, or other instruments with microphones.

The whole thing about gain staging is about avoiding distortion and the noise floor on the analog side of your setup. Since you don't have an analog side, the noise floor isn't an issue and as long as you don't go over 0dbfs, you won't get any distortion.

Of course, when you start mixing, it is easier if you don't have 36 tracks that are all peaking at 0dbfs, but it won't cause a problem, you will just have to turn all the tracks down in order to keep the master bus from clipping.
 
Got it , it's an amazing feeling to see how unknown people are leaving their kindness in such forums for unknown people.All you generous people on the other side ....Thanks for your help.
 
It's kinda funny because I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I've been recording for years through trial and error because I didn't have anybody to talk to about it. Now I find a website that's all about recording and it's like I need to learn a new language and new words to describe things. So you will probably get annoyed with me quite soon.
 
So you will probably get annoyed with me quite soon.
As long as you don't act like a dick, nobody will mind one bit. That's what we're here for. Do your best to articulate your questions clearly and specifically, and we'll do our best to get you some info.
 
Absolutely! As long as you can articulate your point or question well, there's always someone willing to help. :)
Welcome to HR, [MENTION=197389]Stompanoogie[/MENTION]
 
It's kinda funny because I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I've been recording for years through trial and error because I didn't have anybody to talk to about it. Now I find a website that's all about recording and it's like I need to learn a new language and new words to describe things. So you will probably get annoyed with me quite soon.

Just don't ask 'can I sing'. lol

This forum is full of members that have either had the same questions in the past and learned by their own experience. Or some that have a higher level of experience that just wish to help others.

I personally won't be annoyed. :) Best to you and ask away. :thumbs up:
 
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