fundamentals, overtones, harmonic content, etc

[Nola]

do you guys factor this stuff in when recording or mixing?

i can see how it would come in handy on something like a kick drum, but can you even bother with it with an instrument that's constantly changing notes?

how do you go about finding the fundamental of an instrument? trial and error, or is there a way to find it in software? if it's trial and error it seems like you could be off a few hz/khz and cut or boost wrong. once you find it, do you cut the 7th and 11th harmonics since they're unrelated pitch and bad sounding?

also, does the tube/analog preamp add even harmonics and the transistor odd harmonics, and this is why many of us feel the transistor gear sounds "cold"? i didn't a search for fundamentals, overtones, and harmonic content and nothing came up. i was really surprised this hasn't been discussed.

 

[ecc83]

Bit of a "scatter gun" question!
You can find the fundamentals of instruments from charts or you can use a Real Time Analyser. Many DAWs have one (Reaper?) but Right Mark Analyser is free and most handy.

Acoustic instruments don't AFAIK have "bad" harmonics? Look up the physics of vibrating strings.

Lot of bollox talked about "valve" and "transistor" sound. The harmonic generation has much more to do with the circuit topology than the devices involved. Thus, single ended stages will produce mainly even harmonics and balanced, push-pull stages will cancel even harmonics* and produce mainly odd. This does NOT mean PP stages are bad! They produce FEWER harmonics overall but what they do produce is 3rd and up.

Transistors have a wider bandwidth than triodes (mega bikes if you are not careful!) so more higher order harmonics can be produced.

Howseever! Transistor circuits (and here we really mean ICs ) can and do use massive amounts of Negative Feed Back and if the overall harmonics are at 0.0002% it does not matter a flying *&^! WHAT they are, you can't hear them!

*This assumes perfect balance of output devices and drive levels over the whole spectrum. Something achieved to some degree in valve hi fi amps but all over the bloody shop in your typical guitar amp!

Dave.

 

[Btyre2013]

it's a very broad subject but yes I factor it into everything I do, especially with EQ in particular, and using distortion and overdrive to enhance the harmonics, I tend to favour class A type circuits, especially in guitar amps, even harmonics just sound more musical to me as it rounds out the sound, that is why I bought an RND 511 Portico preamp, it has the ability to add even or odd harmonics with the 'silk' knob, you can dial it in, yet it's always class A. I think transformers alter the 'tone' more than anything else, I have noticed they make a huge difference, having modded a few of my own guitar amps and swapped out cheap transformers for high end ones, it changed the harmonics and made them sound less harsh and more rounded, thicker e.t.c.

 

[Farview]

If you are talking about equipment adding harmonics to the instruments sound, it means that you are distorting it. Apart from guitar amps, the rest of your equipment shouldn't be distorting the signal to the point that you are.adding odd harmonics to the point that it would make any difference.

The fundamental changes with the note you are playing. It's easy to look up the note frequency.

But for eq purposes, you aren't going to be eqing single notes, you will be eqing noteqs ranges. But it is probably easier to just listen and eq accordingly. The only time you would eq a single note frequency would be if you have a problem instrument that has a single note that sticks out. Even then, on stringed instruments, the power will be an octave above the fundamental.

Instead of listening for notes and harmonics, listen for what different frequency ranges sound like. Then you can apply that knowlege to all instruments and mixes.

 

[ecc83]

You might FAVOUR class "A" circuits Btyre but you are most unlikely to be listening to any!

No valved guitar amplifier (and very few "hi fi" ones) are class A except at very low drive levels where they tend not to be very interesting. Even the single ended horrors rarely stay in class A for any decent level of power.

Nothing with an IC in it will have C A output stages (tho' there is SO much NFB in say an NE5532 that it does not matter a jot)

A headphone amp MIGHT be truly class A but you would know because it would get pretty warm!

But! We all listen to everything through active monitors* and there is NO WAY the 100+50W LF and HF amps in those are class bloody A!

I not criticise or belittle what people hear. I have met people with extraordinarily perceptive ears (and their claims went on to be justified in bench tests on scopes and such) but I wish the whole class A thing would die!

*And passives of course need amplifiers. Very unlikely to be old Sugden As!

Dave.

 

[Greg_L]

i was really surprised this hasn't been discussed.

That's because absolutely none of this shit matters. You are suffering from information overload.

 

[ecc83]

That's because absolutely none of this shit matters. You are suffering from information overload.[/QUOTE

Absolutely right Greg! I could bang on for hours about this shit but I shall stop now.

Dave.

 

[Farview]

It really does seem like you are searching for some "secret" consideration or technique that will make your recording projects be awesome. There really isn't one.

A lot of people have superstitions about how they get something to sound good...and they talk about them on line as if it is the holy grail of recording and the secret of the universe. It isn't.

Over time, you will develop your listening skills and through experience, you will instinctively know what will work and what won't. Unfortunately, it takes time.

 

[Farview]

do you guys factor this stuff in when recording or mixing?

Nope, not normally.

i can see how it would come in handy on something like a kick drum, but can you even bother with it with an instrument that's constantly changing notes?

It really doesn't even then.

how do you go about finding the fundamental of an instrument? trial and error, or is there a way to find it in software? if it's trial and error it seems like you could be off a few hz/khz and cut or boost wrong. once you find it, do you cut the 7th and 11th harmonics since they're unrelated pitch and bad sounding?

The instrument doesn't have a fundamental. The note does. The harmonic content of a note is what makes a flute sound different than a piano playing the same note. If you mess with it too much, it will no longer sound like the instrument that is being played.

also, does the tube/analog preamp add even harmonics and the transistor odd harmonics, and this is why many of us feel the transistor gear sounds "cold"? i didn't a search for fundamentals, overtones, and harmonic content and nothing came up. i was really surprised this hasn't been discussed.

Tube and transistor are both analog. You will be hard pressed to find an actual transistor preamp, as most are IC. Many of us 'feel' solid state sound cold because many of us are using cheap solid state gear. Cheap tube gear will sound cold too. But, the most sought after mic preamps of all time are all solid state designs that are known for their warmth. (Neve, API, etc...) Name one 'holy grail' mic preamp with a tube in it.

The even/odd harmonic argument is more about guitar amp distortion, and is a very, very old argument based on solid state guitar amps from the 60's and 70's...which did suck. However, since you are probably not over-driving your mic preamps that much, the type of distortion it makes is irrelevant.

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...I agree with the last few posts.

You really don't want to slice things up with a microscope...looking for some special variable that makes everything great.
I mean...it sounds so cliché to say this, as it's been said a gazillion times on audio forums...but just use your ears to find what sounds good.
It doesn't matter if it's fundamental tones or "good/bad" harmonics, or anything else...if it sounds good overall for the mix at hand, that's all that counts.

 

[Nola]

Name one 'holy grail' mic preamp with a tube in it.

wouldn't the ua/putnam 610 fit?
i'm not looking for any secret i just want to know if engineers dig this deep into things or ignore it. like if you know the fundamental you can then boost the pleasing harmonics if you can pinpoint them, or avoid accidentally cutting them. but to do that would probably require an eq that adapts to changing notes, which i'm not sure exists. so in theory, if you make an eq cut on note x, when the note changes to note z, you might be cutting out a pleasing harmonic, right? it seems important to consider that. i guess you could automate the eq

i have a situation where it applies and i can hear it. when i play a bass guitar note on the 5th string, it doesn't sound as deep/round as on the 6th, and i'd guess it has something to do with the harmonics on that string b/c it's a different timbre. is that wrong? if it's correct maybe automating eq to boost the low end when the 5 string hits would make sense.

 

[miroslav]

i have a situation where it applies and i can hear it. when i play a bass guitar note on the 5th string, it doesn't sound as deep/round as on the 6th, and i'd guess it has something to do with the harmonics on that string b/c it's a different timbre. is that wrong?

Well yeah....the two strings are different gauges...so it will never sound the same.
When I run into that for a given bass line...I just go with the note position that sounds better to me, if in fact it becomes bothersome.

You're not going to want to adjust harmonics just for the notes that were on the 5th string...and if you do it for the entire track, then maybe the notes that were on the 6th string now sound too woofy..etc.

Find a different arrangement if you can...a different way to play it....rather than surgically adjusting notes, etc...IMO.

 

[Nola]

When I run into that for a given bass line...I just go with the note position that sounds better to me, if in fact it becomes bothersome.

yeah that's what i did originally, but then i had to jump up an extra 5 frets to play D at the 10th fret on the 6 string instead of the 5th fret of the 5th string, which made the bassline difficult at the tempo. If you're in G you want that D at the 5th fret for fast/busy parts, but it doesn't always sound right to me. In a rock song it sounds fine, but in a mellower tune that leans on bass not really.

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...I know your pain.

I've at times simply gone with a different baseline if I didn't like the sound of the notes...I've spent hours rehearsing a very difficult finger pattern in order to avoid that at times...and I've also cheated, by doubling up on that note with the same note on a lower string.

TBH...I tend to reserve "most" of my baselines to the two lower strings, because that's what I want from the bass guitar, a very fat low end. I'll get into the 3rd string on occasion when there's a more fluid set of notes that works into that string or when I'm closer to the nut....but I don't think I've ever touched the highest/G string on the bass!!!

Of course...I may do a funk tune one of these days...so that G string might still come in handy.

 

[Nola]

Yeah...I know your pain.

I've at times simply gone with a different baseline if I didn't like the sound of the notes...I've spent hours rehearsing a very difficult finger pattern in order to avoid that at times...and I've also cheated, by doubling up on that note with the same note on a lower string.

TBH...I tend to reserve "most" of my baselines to the two lower strings, because that's what I want from the bass guitar, a very fat low end. I'll get into the 3rd string on occasion when there's a more fluid set of notes that works into that string or when I'm closer to the nut....but I don't think I've ever touched the highest/G string on the bass!!!

Of course...I may do a funk tune one of these days...so that G string might still come in handy.

yeah agree, miroslav, and many times i'll try to stick to the 6th string alone. i just like that full, warm, round sound of it, and when i go to the 5th string it's only for quick passing notes, in general, unless for speed purposes i have to use it more. but i ran into a song where i had to use the 5 string. and it's popping out to me, which inspired this thread. like there must be something about the harmonics of that 5th string that's less pleasing. so you double the note on the fattest string? do you then cut the one on the 5th string or leave it? that's a good idea. i was thinking to EQ/automate that note.

ps. i guess they're technically 4th and 3rd strings on a bass? i think in guitar terms. sorry if it offends any bassist. i'll just say E and A strings moving forward

 

[Btyre2013]

I would buy 'mastering audio' by Bob Katz, in that book he has a chart called the 'musical pitch relation chart' it helps to understand what frequencies to boost and cut, still nothing beats experience.

 

[Nola]

I would buy 'mastering audio' by Bob Katz, in that book he has a chart called the 'musical pitch relation chart' it helps to understand what frequencies to boost and cut, still nothing beats experience.

thanks, i actually own that book, but i'm only a few chapters into it.

 

[Farview]

OK, the 610 is one...All the rest are solid state.

As has been said before, the same note on different strings/positions will always sound different. I used to have that problem on my 5 string bass. The B string was always dull sounding compared to the other 4 strings. (I favor brighter bass tones) You just have to deal with it. It's the nature of the instrument.

Again, the fundamental note on a stringed instrument won't be the problem. It will be the first and second octave above.

What I would do is de-emphasize the range of frequencies that were giving me the problem to smooth out the sound a bit and compress the hell out of it. Worst case, I would have an EQ before the compressor and one after. The one before takes the problem frequencies down. The one after fills in what's missing. It smooths everything out.

But I can tell you that absolutely no sane person will take the time to automate an EQ for every note. It was never a thing that professionals do. In fact, it wasn't even possible until about 10-15 years ago. So the 100 years of recording prior to that, it was never done.

 

[Nola]

OK, the 610 is one...All the rest are solid state.

As has been said before, the same note on different strings/positions will always sound different. I used to have that problem on my 5 string bass. The B string was always dull sounding compared to the other 4 strings. (I favor brighter bass tones) You just have to deal with it. It's the nature of the instrument.

Again, the fundamental note on a stringed instrument won't be the problem. It will be the first and second octave above.

What I would do is de-emphasize the range of frequencies that were giving me the problem to smooth out the sound a bit and compress the hell out of it. Worst case, I would have an EQ before the compressor and one after. The one before takes the problem frequencies down. The one after fills in what's missing. It smooths everything out.

But I can tell you that absolutely no sane person will take the time to automate an EQ for every note. It was never a thing that professionals do. In fact, it wasn't even possible until about 10-15 years ago. So the 100 years of recording prior to that, it was never done.

thanks, farview.

let me ask one more thing: say you make a cut in the first or second octave of the fundamental. now say the note changes to a different pitch. aren't you then cutting/EQing that other notes harmonics, which may be pleasing harmonics?

i'm just surprised engineers do this since they're very concerned with acoustics/physics, etc, yet with this aspect of the science they just say it doesn't matter.

then also, where to "harmonic exciters" come into play? if harmonics don't matter, why do these exist? and engineers don't really have control over the harmonics they add if notes are constantly changing, correct?

i realize some of this is theoretical because maybe we can't hear all that, but i have ocd, so i care to at least know the theory and then decide how anal i want to get.

 

[miroslav]

OK, the 610 is one...All the rest are solid state.

Yes...if you look at only the very vintage "holy grail" pres from the late '60s-early '70s...and then from that same period, the "holy grail" tube stuff was maybe more found in comps.

That said, there are other "holy grail" pres, a bit more "current" but certainly considered as top of the line stuff and very desirable and found in the best studios. Manley has been making them for years, D.W. Fearn is another one, Tube Tech has also been around for awhile...there's also the Avalon stuff...and the Groove Tubes ViPre has attained a very sought-after status...and probably a few others out there I can't think of...
...all of which, IMO/YMMV, blow the 610 out of the water AFA "holy grail" status.

Not to mention...on the audiophile stereo side...tube pres ruled and still do....but that's another discussion.