Fixing very audible breathing in a soft acoustic track

DrewPeterson7

Sage of the Order
Ok, I haven't posted here in ages, so first off, hi everyone!

I've been working on a project for a while now with my dad and my uncle, which in many ways has been a lot of fun - both were critical in getting me into music as a kid, so it's been a lot of fun to, as an adult, work on an album with them. Of course, there's a few ways where it's been LESS fun, one of them being that I have much higher standards for recording and performance quality than they do, which thankfully has mostly just resulted in a lot of studio Nazi jokes and Dickens inspired "can I have one more take, sir" good natured teasing and the like.

Anyway... We're nearly done with the tracking, and I've been spending some time working on getting the music ready to mix. For the most part, I think I'm in good shape, but there's this one particular track that's been a struggle. We've recorded it twice now, and while I think the other two view this as "good enough," there's still some things really bugging me about it.

The biggest is, my uncle plays guitar VERY softly, and there's some extremely audible breathing on his acoustic guitar tracks that, in some places, is louder than the performance:

[MP3]https://drewpeterson7.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/mr-breathing.mp3[/MP3]

I'm kind of at a loss what to do about it. I know the RIGHT thing is to just re-record the acoustic guitar on this. And, while I hate to spend any more time on this one, more likely than not that's what I'll end up doing, especially as there's a few other issues, the biggest being the fact that (despite my one-week-out email with a list of things to get ready for the session - hey, I'm embracing this studio Nazi thing - my uncle showed up with a fairly dead set of strings on his guitar, and I didn't realize until we were just about to start tracking).

Before I bite the bullet and ask him to start brushing up on his part before the next session, though, is there anything else you'd try on this? I didn't have much luck trying to find the "problem" frequencies with a de-esser or multiband compressor, partly because the acoustic is such a full-range instrument to begin with. Are there any approaches you've tried in the past on things like this, or plugins designed for surgical removal of a particular type of noise?

I can't really edit out the breathing and drop in parts from elsewhere, largely because I already had to splice this together to hell and back just to get a clean performance in the first place. Normally I'd deal with this by buying it in the mix and letting something else drive the song, except this is a song that really needs to hang on the fingerpicked acoustic part so changing the arrangement isn't really working (or, if it could, I haven't found one that works yet). Suggesting taking the arrangement in a radically different direction with instrumentation etc isn't an option either because my uncle is pretty hung up on his original demo, and while I'd be tempted to just throw my hands up and use the demo on the final recording, the recording quality is pretty abysmally bad even if, objectively, it's a better performance. Re-recording is probably the only real answer here, except I'm loath to do that because it took us an hour or two and probably more than a dozen takes to even get here, and since my uncle rarely plays for more than a few minutes at a time, the more time we spend on this, the less time we have to work on the material we have left before his fingertips give out.

Really it's my own fault for not 1) forcing him to restring before we started tracking, and 2) really honing in on just how obvious his breathing was in the tracks we were recording. Lesson learned. :lol:
 
a) welcome back. long time no see.

b) in principle, i am not averse to hearing breathing on tracks . . it shows that there is a human there.

c) the breathing is prominent, and I can see how it is an irritant for what would otherwise be a crisp guitar track, but it's almost rhythmical, and maybe you could regard as a percussive effect (like brushes).

d) re-tracking is an option so long as you don't simply replicate the problem.
 
Couple good suggestions here, and I'll check out the Spectral Editor vid from home tonight (writing this from work on my lunch break - I'm definitely a Reaper user). Brushes could be an interesting approach too, so maybe I'll give a shot to trying a few different drum performances and see if something masks it a little more than what I'm doing here (my dad and uncle actually would kind of like to do this with no percussion - again, demo-itis and wanting to exactly replicate the demo my uncle has been listening to for years now - but the guitar track isn't rhythmically driving enough on its own to hang an arrangement around, which they've even conceded after listening to playback with the drums muted).

Kudos for already knowing the answer to your plight! Now, can anybody say "Lets take it from the top boys".

So, no arguments that there's a theoretically correct answer here, and god knows I get dogmatic enough about recording approaches and "best practices" and the like elsewhere - normally I play instrumental rock, and while I'm not THAT metal, a lot of the guys I talk recording with elsewhere here are metalheads, and I'm a staunch opponent of heavy digital editing and quantizaton and note correction and all the other stuff you hear commonly in modern metal, expecially of the home-recorded variety. And yet... I concede that at the end of the day, your job mixing and producing music is to take the tracks you're given and make them sound as good as possible, and again I'm a firm believer of getting it right while tracking rather than editing it together in the mix, yet given the player in question here, I've spent hours on this project editing performances to get them to a standard where I can live with them on playback. There's a theoretical right answer, sure, and in an ideal world, that's what you do... But, the reality is, I'm not sure I CAN get a better performance than this out of the guitarist, I don't have much faith that if I ask him to start practicing this part again, he'll put in the time necessary to get it clean, and I can only imagine how, "hey, can you record it again, but not breath so loud?" is going to go over. With my own music I have a lot more control over performance and either practicing until I can nail a part cleanly enough for the mix, or if I can't get there, then owning that and changing the part to something I CAN play. Here, I'm working with a guitarist who I don't expect will practice enough to get this up to a professional standard, is dead set on doing it exactly as he wrote it and won't change a note, and picks so quietly when he's playing something he's clearly not confident about that his breathing is overloading this track, and on another song I had to copy and paste in a section from elsewhere in the performance because his stomach rumbled at one point and it was as loud as the guitar performance.

So, yeah, I get what you're saying, and god knows I can be preachy and condescending at times too when it comes to digital editing... But, at some point we have to accept the reality that we don't get to work with the performances we want, but the ones we're actually given. I'm trying to salvage an existing performance, and I'm wondering if there's anything else I haven't thought of that I can try. As it stands, my uncle wants to go back and re-record all of his vocal tracks now because he says he's not happy with them (and the one track I agreed to let him try, his performance was far inferior to his original, weaker and almost spoken rather than sung), and at this stage in the game where it's really this and one additional song we still have to record, I'm trying to do ANYTHING I can to not have to open that pandora's box. :laughings: So, yeah, as you point out I pretty clearly know what the theoretically "right" thing to do here is, but the fact I'm looking for alternatives should speak volumes that there's a lot of other reasons why simply retracking isn't guaranteed to be an answer either and may cause more problems than it solves, so I don't really see how even you expected your answer to be helpful.



***

EDIT - I guess, by way of a non-sequitor, that despite the fact I'm pretty frustrated with this one particular tune (this is the second time we've recorded it now, so it's been a LOT of work), overall this has been a really fun project for me, there's been a lot of great, fun, funny moments recording with my dad and my uncle, it's the first time I've ever personally written vocal music or sang on a recording which has been fun to get out of my comfort zone, and some of the music we've done I legitimately love. I'm just ready to be done with this particular song. :laughings:
 
From what you wrote, you started this project because you thought it would be fun, and a nice thing to do. If at any point, it stops being fun and nice, you need to take a step back and reevaluate the project and your attitude towards it.

I know you want it to be the best it can. You're going to have your name on it. You've got chops and you want to use them. But unless your uncle is more famous than mine, nobody's really going to hear this except friends and family anyway. Maybe you bring it here, and hopefully it doesn't get completely laughed out of the MP3 clinic. Not so much to say lighten up, but maybe just take a breath. Pick your battles.

I would tend to embrace a quirk like this if there was no easy fix. The idea of brushes, maybe shakers. Maybe a chorus of rhythmic breathing! Like "that's what we meant to do all along." :)

OTOH - Can you play the part well (or poorly) enough to just kinda sneak it in there?
 
I'm kind of at a loss what to do about it. I know the RIGHT thing is to just re-record the acoustic guitar on this. And, while I hate to spend any more time on this one, more likely than not that's what I'll end up doing, especially as there's a few other issues, the biggest being the fact that (despite my one-week-out email with a list of things to get ready for the session - hey, I'm embracing this studio Nazi thing - my uncle showed up with a fairly dead set of strings on his guitar, and I didn't realize until we were just about to start tracking).

I was simply agreeing with what you said you already knew. What I have set in a bold font above, are your words and I was simply stating you were making the right decision. Some things you just can't fix using your DAW. Someone here has a tag line that goes something like this. "If it ain't happening in the room, it ain't happening on the tape". If you reverse that to say that "if it is happening in the room" then you wind up with what you are facing now. My response was not meant to degrade you, rather it was made to complement your knowledge.

For some reason your link to your example is not showing up when I read your post, if I quote your post, it shows up. Since the breathing is so close to the level of your clean audio is, it will be impossible to remove it without damaging the audio it is embedded in using something like ReaFir. To mask it using another instrument or brushes is a very good idea. I also think it will take you hrs to do so and I hope I am wrong. Like it was mentioned above, throw it up in the mp3 mixing clinic and see what shakes out.
 
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From what you wrote, you started this project because you thought it would be fun, and a nice thing to do. If at any point, it stops being fun and nice, you need to take a step back and reevaluate the project and your attitude towards it.

I know you want it to be the best it can. You're going to have your name on it. You've got chops and you want to use them. But unless your uncle is more famous than mine, nobody's really going to hear this except friends and family anyway. Maybe you bring it here, and hopefully it doesn't get completely laughed out of the MP3 clinic. Not so much to say lighten up, but maybe just take a breath. Pick your battles.

I would tend to embrace a quirk like this if there was no easy fix. The idea of brushes, maybe shakers. Maybe a chorus of rhythmic breathing! Like "that's what we meant to do all along." :)

OTOH - Can you play the part well (or poorly) enough to just kinda sneak it in there?

For the most part, this project has been a blast. It's just this one track that's trying my patience. :lol:

That actually crossed my mind, just playing it myself. The problem is, I'm really more of a rock guy at heart, and am pretty lost without a pick. I have considered that, though, and I suppose it's as good an opportunity as any to just transcribe the part and see if I can pull off a better performance myself.

I was simply agreeing with what you said you already knew. What I have set in a bold font above, are your words and I was simply stating you were making the right decision. Some things you just can't fix using your DAW. Someone here has a tag line that goes something like this. "If it ain't happening in the room, it ain't happening on the tape". If you reverse that to say that "if it is happening in the room" then you wind up with what you are facing now. My response was not meant to degrade you, rather it was made to complement your knowledge.

For some reason your link to your example is not showing up when I read your post, if I quote your post, it shows up. Since the breathing is so close to the level of your clean audio is, it will be impossible to remove it without damaging the audio it is embedded in using something like ReaFir. To mask it using another instrument or brushes is a very good idea. I also think it will take you hrs to do so and I hope I am wrong. Like it was mentioned above, throw it up in the mp3 mixing clinic and see what shakes out.

By the way, sorry to kind of jump down your throat there - I think I'm just frustrated that I KNOW what the likely answer is going to be, ad I really wish it was something else. :laughings:

I should put some of the other stuff from this project up in MP3 clinic as I get the mixes into shape - some of it I actually think is quite good, and I'm proud to have been a part of it.
 
By the way, sorry to kind of jump down your throat there - I think I'm just frustrated that I KNOW what the likely answer is going to be, ad I really wish it was something else. :laughings:I should put some of the other stuff from this project up in MP3 clinic as I get the mixes into shape - some of it I actually think is quite good, and I'm proud to have been a part of it.

No harm and no foul Brother. As [MENTION=112380]jimmys69[/MENTION] often says, "it's hard to see emotion in written words". Not only could I hear your frustration in my head, I could also see your desire to produce quality audio in your words. If you do need to do a take 2, maybe you can grab a pack of breath right strips for your uncle. If he's into hunting, get a poster of a 12 point buck and pin it to the ceiling above him to make him look up to keep the breathing out of the mix. (I was going to say maybe Ms February from 1968 but I don't want to come across as sexist).

His playing was beautiful and you have a right to be proud being a part of this project. Often we will let family slide when we would have no problem telling strangers, "Yo Dude, you sound like a snorting bull and it is coming into the mix. Regardless of what it takes, even if you have to hold your breath, this aint going to work"! I charge by the hr and you are getting real close to your 2 hr minimum.

I read an article last week concerning recording 101. It amazed me how much of the simple things I take for granite as sometimes my ego over rides my common sense. It's the simple things that cost us time and that translate into money. I had a kid call me last week telling me how he was going to run the show in my little studio and that was just the way it was going to be. I told him I had no problem as long as they were satisfied with the tracks and I would not intervene whatsoever. The first hr sounded like crap. The second hr they were asking why does it sound like crap.

That brought us into the next 2 hr min. They got their education for mic placement from YT and being young, they knew it all! We finished within an hr and I only charged them for the first two. I have 5 grandchildren and I have learned the fastest way to get a kid to listen, is to control their money! I had no problem telling them this is where you are screwing the pooch! They aint family.
:spank:
 
Cool playing and it is a pity that the breathing is in there cause it is REALLY in there... I am sure there are gazillion tricks you could use to remove "some" of the breathing but it overlaps so much with the music I have to believe after a lot of time and effort you are not going to achieve the desired end results.. The take 2 option with some extra effort on making Unk aware of the breathing issue, maybe a directional mic pointing down to the guitar... A bandana mask over Unk's mouth (ya know like the cowboy bank robber's wear) might be a more proficient way to get this laid down in the fashion you would like. I totally get the breathing heavy thing as when I get to jammin sometimes it happens...and I play the keys :laughings:
 
Have you thought about using a figure 8 pattern mic where you place the null point where the players mouth is? This should reduce the breathing being picked up?

Alan.
 
One time consuming thing you can try: if you DAW has spectral editing (particularly with some form of spot healing brush tool) it can be very useful for this sort of thing. You draw around each breath and the DAW fills the space with sound from the adjacent area. I've used it a few times for this sort of problem.
 
:lol:

You know, we seem to be gradually moving towards "how can you ensure this doesn't happen in the next take, so maybe it makes sense to go down that road, since barring spectral editing getting most of this out, that's probably our next course of action.

I actually really like the idea of a bandanna, and thanks to a Red Bandanna charity 5k I do annually, I have a whole bunch of them lying around the house. :lol: I grabbed a pair of SE Electronics SE4400a's not that long ago (not the greatest example since we were working with pretty dead strings, but I believe I was using them here) that do have a couple fairly directional/figure 8 modes on them, so that's worth a shot, too. I could also try to position a music stand between the mic and my uncle's head, but depending on how much of his view of the fretboard that blocked, that might mess with his ability to play.

Mack - man, that's funny. :lol: I hope the kids learned a thing or two from the experience, and it was good of you not to charge them for the wasted hour.
 
Ok, two hours of editing later and some rebalancing of the mix, and that's absolutely nuts. The future is an amazing place. I still have to do a little bit of cleanup and it'll never be perfect, but it's already useable enough that no one who isn't listening for it will ever notice. Amazing.
 
Ok, two hours of editing later and some rebalancing of the mix, and that's absolutely nuts. The future is an amazing place. I still have to do a little bit of cleanup and it'll never be perfect, but it's already useable enough that no one who isn't listening for it will ever notice. Amazing.

Good to know!, With SOME of my takes I need lots of help for LOTS of bad habits that go/went unnoticed for years thanks to more live playing than critical recording? :spank: :rolleyes: :thumbs up:
 
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