a few mixing questions

[Nola]

i finally got to recording real guitars and i'm mixing some tonight.

i notice some weird things. say i have two distorted guitars -- if i spread them l/r it actually sounds less powerful than having just one in the middle. the sound almost seems to get quieter. this seems counter intuitive. any ideas? is it phase? i recorded them both with 1 mic at different times, so i didn't think phase would be a problem. also, i'm not sure if it's imagination but these same guitars seem to have random volume drops when i try to mix them together. they don't have that problem on their own.

also, i recorded some tracks with a semi hollow body/chambered gretsch. that guitar sounded great while tracking, but when i play the tracks back tonight it sounds kind of distant and weird. is that just the nature of semi hollow when recording? it sounds like a jesus and mary chain vibe.

i recorded my acoustic tracks upstairs and electric down stairs in different rooms. both were close mic'd, but the acoustic has more ambience. what's the best way to make these sound like the same space? thanks!

 

[miroslav]

Did you check for polarity/phase differences between the two guitar tracks...?...though you would notice that more when they are panned together than when they are apart L/R.

Of course...when you panned them both up the middle, they will reinforce and sound bigger/fatter than when separate and apart...so maybe it's just your expectation...?
Also...did you mess with the pan law by any chance...? The "norm" is 3 dB boost when panned hard L/R compared to center. If that was set to "0"...it could account for the perceived level drop.

AFA the differences in room ambience...your only option is to add similar ambience to the dry recorded tracks.
There is are some "de-verb" plugs out there...but I don't know how well they work.

 

[Nola]

thanks miroslav, can you explain that pan law more? or point me to an article? i never heard of that.
i'll try reversing polarity right now. i didn't think to do it b/c i didn't think you could get phase issues when recording in mono.

do you know if chambered/semi-hollow bodies actually sound kind of ...hollow/distant...when they're recorded?

 

[Farview]

Did you record the semi hollow body with a mic, or did you mic the amp? (I'm assuming you are talking about an electric guitar with f-holes, like an ES335) if you just miced the guitar, it will sound thin and strange, because it isn't really an acoustic guitar.

When you pan the guitar parts wide, it should sound more spacious and less in your face. What's cool about that is that it leaves room in the middle for vocals, Bass, etc... that means you can turn the guitars up in the mix (to get them back in your face) without stomping on the vocals.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Hey Nola,
Are you making your judgements on solo guitar tracks?

As the other guys describe, something panned dead centre will probably appear more powerful or just louder than something (or two things) panned wide,
but in a mix the opposite would probably be true.
A panned centre guitar might be fighting with elements of the kit, bass, drums etc, whereas two panned wide would/should/might cut through.

If there were phase or polarity issues, they'd manifest as cancellation with two parts panned to the same place, and as a weird hollow dizzying feeling with two parts panned apart.

 

[Nola]

Did you record the semi hollow body with a mic, or did you mic the amp? (I'm assuming you are talking about an electric guitar with f-holes, like an ES335) if you just miced the guitar, it will sound thin and strange, because it isn't really an acoustic guitar.

When you pan the guitar parts wide, it should sound more spacious and less in your face. What's cool about that is that it leaves room in the middle for vocals, Bass, etc... that means you can turn the guitars up in the mix (to get them back in your face) without stomping on the vocals.

i recorded it through an amp. it doesn't have f holes but it's chambered. do theses sound hollow? i never recorded it until now.

regarding distortion, if i used one mic per guitar track, i shouldn't have phase, correct? i'm not sure what i'm hearing. maybe it's room...maybe i'm not used to any room at all since i use sims usually? it's a bit disappointing sounding b/c it's too "wet" and sounds phasy to me. i mic'd only 1" from the speaker grill so i thought that would eliminate room

 

[Nola]

Hey Nola,
Are you making your judgements on solo guitar tracks?

hey steen. not really. i started them out center, then panned them, then noted the observations.

what's more concerning is that i hear something that sounds like phase. it might just be the room and i'm not used to that, as i mentioned. would phase be possible with one mic per track/mono? when you blend a bunch of mono tracks can you get phase?

 

[Steenamaroo]

regarding distortion, if i used one mic per guitar track, i shouldn't have phase, correct? i'm not sure what i'm hearing.

when you blend a bunch of mono tracks can you get phase?

It's not impossible to have cancellation on two completely independently single-mic recorded sources.
Some of the guys who layer harmonies (myself, RAMI, Andrush etc) get that all the time on double tracked vocals with one mic per take.

That's part of the reason a lot of people use a different guitar or pickup, and maybe a different amp too, for double tracking.
The more subtle differences you can introduce, whilst still maintaining the general tone you want, the more the effect will work.
Some guys switch out heads, other cabs...maybe both.....
Playing the part differently can make a huge difference too.
Playing one part all open chords and another part all barred, for example.

Greg's pretty much the man on this one. Hopefully he'll throw some tips your way.

---------- Update ----------

hey steen. not really. i started them out center, then panned them, then noted the observations.

I get that, but I mean are you listening to the guitars in a mix, or just guitars?

---------- Update ----------

 

[miroslav]

thanks miroslav, can you explain that pan law more? or point me to an article? i never heard of that.
i'll try reversing polarity right now. i didn't think to do it b/c i didn't think you could get phase issues when recording in mono.

do you know if chambered/semi-hollow bodies actually sound kind of ...hollow/distant...when they're recorded?

Here...this covers it for the most part: Pan Law Of The Land- Defining What Pan Law Really Is- ProRec.com | ProRec.com

It may not be your issue...or even the polarity/phase...I'm just giving you things you can at least check and cross off.

Without hearing the differences you are hearing...it's hard to tell...and I do think it may be your expectations of how you think it should sound.

 

[Nola]

It's not impossible to have cancellation on two completely independently recorded vocals.
Some of the guys who layer harmonies (myself, RAMI, Andrush etc) get that all the time on double tracked vocals with one mic per take.

That's part of the reason a lot of people use a different guitar or pickup, and maybe a different amp too, for double tracking.
The more subtle differences you can introduce, whilst still maintaining the general tone you want, the more the effect will work.

Playing the part differently can make a huge difference too.
Playing one part all open chords and another part all barred, for example.

Greg's pretty much the man on this one. Hopefully he'll throw some tips your way.

---------- Update ----------



I get that, but I mean are you listening to the guitars in a mix, or just guitars?

---------- Update ----------



Absolutely. I think our replies overlapped there....Look up.

thanks!
is there any way in post recording to fix phase from mono tracks?

i'm listening to the guitars alone because that's all i have. i did them with a drum track. i haven't added anything else in yet except the drums.

 

[Nola]

I do think it may be your expectations of how you think it should sound.

it's an untreated room, so it's probably that, and the fact i used sims up until now, so i never heard a real room. it just sounds..."roomy" (go figure) and weird. so yes, probably expectations or just ignorance to what this would sound like. it's my first time. when i was tracking i didn't notice this, but when i changed rooms and went back to listen to all the finished mixes, some things sound odd. some guitars almost sound slightly underwater. not bad so we don't need to focus on that, but a little of that effect, whatever that is. is that comb filtering, phase, something else?

 

[Steenamaroo]

thanks!
is there any way in post recording to fix phase from mono tracks?

i'm listening to the guitars alone because that's all i have. i did them with a drum track. i haven't added anything else in yet except the drums.

I'm not aware of any.
Definitely representing Greg in this thread - Re recording is always the better way.
You get a better outcome and you learn something valuable.

it's an untreated room, so it's probably that, and the fact i used sims up until now, so i never heard a real room. it just sounds..."roomy" (go figure) and weird. when i was tracking i didn't notice this, but when i changed rooms and went back to listen to all the finished mixes, some things sound odd. some guitars almost sound slightly underwater. not bad, but a little of that effect, whatever that is. is that comb filtering, phase, something else? can any of this be fixed?

Well...there's an easy way to find out of it's the room or the interplay of two recordings. Listen to one single recording on its own.
If it sucks, don't introduce another one. That'll suck more.

If it's great and adding take two sucks, then you probably need to vary your performance or equipment like I listed.

I don't know what your mixing habits are but since this is kinda new to you, put the plugins down for now.
Microphone, volume, and pan should be getting you 90% of the way there and the rest (at the end) is polishing.

I'm not sure how much the room should really come into play recording a guitar amp 1" away.
I mean, of course it'll have an effect but way less than it would on vocals or something, right?

Is the amp good and loud?

Mic choice and position* That's another one for the list of things to switch up when double tracking.

 

[Nola]

Thanks, Steen. The tracks sound very good on their own, but I really want to pan and layer some of these tracks. I used two guitars knowing it would create a difference...a strat and a gretsch, but I only have 1 amp. I had the amp on like 4 or 5 (after that it just breaks up more doesn't get louder), but it was loud. The gretsch sounds more "underwater/hollow" than the strat. I wonder if that's just the sound of it mic'd.

I can't retrack anything because I'm leaving this spot and going home, where I have neighbors who complain about everything. :/

One other question: i had the guitars routed through my three pedals, but the pedals were off. Would these cause any problem? I did that because for a few songs I turn the pedals on in the middle of the song. I hope they didn't introduce some issues.

 

[Nola]

Mirosolav, i just finished the pan law article... that article is over my head. I just don't have enough experience or education to know what they're talking about. Usually I just mix in mono and then pan at the end b/c i want the mix to sound good mono.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Thanks, Steen. The tracks sound very good on their own, but I really want to pan and layer some of these tracks. I used two guitars knowing it would create a difference...a strat and a gretsch, but I only have 1 amp. I had the amp on like 4 or 5 (after that it just breaks up more doesn't get louder), but it was loud. The gretsch sounds more "underwater/hollow" than the strat. I wonder if that's just the sound of it mic'd.

The guitar should sound different but that should be apparent in the room.
Sure, microphone position affects tone A LOT but you should be happy with the sound of the amp to your ears first.

How much thought or time did you put into mic position? No exaggeration, you can move a mic 1" and end up with a god awful honky tone, especially on something like a 12" speaker at that range.
There's such a massive range of tones available with all the combinations of edge, centre, anything in between, axis, distance, etc.

I can't retrack anything because I'm leaving this spot and going home, where I have neighbors who complain about everything. :/

One other question: i had the guitars routed through my three pedals, but the pedals were off. Would these cause any problem? I did that because for a few songs I turn the pedals on in the middle of the song. I hope they didn't introduce some issues.

I can't see why a pedal in bypass would affect anything but, as above, you'd have heard it in the room if it wasn't doing anything weird.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Mirosolav, i just finished the pan law article... that article is over my head. I just don't have enough experience or education to know what they're talking about. Usually I just mix in mono and then pan at the end b/c i want the mix to sound good mono.

That's a good general rule for avoiding unexpected cancellation. If everything's audible in mono it will be audible when panned out.
The 'problem', if you like, is that things may sound thinner or have less impact when panned out, depending how you pan and what parts you have, but I'll take that over cancellation and fighting for space any day of the week.

 

[Nola]

The guitar should sound different but that should be apparent in the room.
Sure, microphone position affects tone A LOT but you should be happy with the sound of the amp to your ears first.

How much thought or time did you put into mic position? No exaggeration, you can move a mic 1" and end up with a god awful honky tone, especially on something like a 12" speaker at that range.
There's such a massive range of tones available with all the combinations of edge, centre, anything in between, axis, distance, etc.

i had 10 days here, and i spent the first day (~15hrs) just messing with mic placement. :/ i have ocd.

but i had no experience miking an amp coming into this, so a lot was learning on the fly, and i might have messed up, which would suck. but the tracks do sound good solo

 

[Steenamaroo]

Hmm..Would you be happy posting an example? Maybe bounce your drum track for a reference, then bounce two separate guitar parts which *should* work together?

 

[Farview]

Post a mix, then we can hear what you are talking about.

If you are hearing this phasiness when the guitars are panned wide, it isn't phase. Phase problems only happen when two signals interact.

Put your head in front of the speaker to see if the sound you are recording is what is actually coming out of the amp. With combo amps, it's easy to think the amp sounds great when you are standing beside it and the sound is blowing at your ankles. What the direct sound coming from the amp sounds like could be something completely different. Especially if it is an open backed cabinet.

Post a mix, then we can all get on the same page.

 

[Nola]

Post a mix, then we can hear what you are talking about.

If you are hearing this phasiness when the guitars are panned wide, it isn't phase. Phase problems only happen when two signals interact.

Put your head in front of the speaker to see if the sound you are recording is what is actually coming out of the amp. With combo amps, it's easy to think the amp sounds great when you are standing beside it and the sound is blowing at your ankles. What the direct sound coming from the amp sounds like could be something completely different. Especially if it is an open backed cabinet.

Post a mix, then we can all get on the same page.

okay, i will when i get home. i have one day left, and i need to get to work and get some vocals done right now.

the general problem is this:

1. guitars all sound good on their own
2. the moment i add two together there seems to be a hollowness or wash over them.

it's like the room's reverb is all summing and bumping.

one other question: one one of the tracks (when it ended and was quiet) i could hear my click track and the song when i stopped playing the guitar -- if the mics were picking this up all along, would it be the cause of this? that would really suck. i'd hope and assume the amp's volume overrides that.