expanding my mixing options...

obviously, every youtube poster doesn't know what they are talking about. but by going through tons of videos, you find credible sources, and they provide a wealth of information. I am not "anti-book", I probably read more than anyone here (I live in the woods with no pesky job to get in the way). but books, much as I revere them, ARE ancient technology. a picture is worth a thousand words, and a 5 minute video is worth an hour of reading. you can say anything in a video you can write in a book, and, additionally, visually and audibly demonstrate it.

nowadays people put out books, instead of making a website or video, simply because it's easier to get paid for a book. once people can easily get paid for websites and videos, books will quickly fall off a cliff. not completely gone, but most people don't use typewriters, these days... a website IS a book, just free and accessible. and etc. books are like how people grunted before we learned to speak. a book can't hold a candle to a youtube video.
 
nowadays people put out books, instead of making a website or video, simply because it's easier to get paid for a book.

Yea, getting paid for your knowledge and time is really so old fashioned. Just a greedy thing of the past.
 
A 5 minute YouTube (while technically accurate) can't possibly cover everything with the same detail as a book might.

The real problem is that YOU (the guy looking for answers) has to decide which YouTube/Blog/Forum info is "credible".
Not to mention...you can waste a LOT of time and get a LOT of bad info while "going through tons of YT videos"....so in the end, how do you know what you have?

Videos are a good supplement to existing, detailed knowledge...but when you solely rely on short YT videos for "learning"...that can often be just "monkey see-monkey do" kind of "knowledge".

Like you said earlier.... "I can learn everything I need on YouTube, if I just know what to search for."

There's the rub....how do you know what you searched for and found on YT is the right thing? :)
 
I registered yesterday, no I didn't register just to make that post haha.

Forgive my abruptness. I mean't nothing by my first post, it was not directed at anyone and I only skimmed this thread but I honestly believe YouTube is being slammed way too hard from what I've just read. There are perfectly legitimate videos on YouTube which has carried me through strongly as to what I know so far. I do read books and I have not come across anything contradictory between YouTube and Specialised books.

I am sorry if I offended, but I kind of felt offended too when everyone is pretty much saying that everything I have learned via YouTube is not reliable and it's most probably all wrong.


I really like your 2 YouTube Videos by the way, very nice.


James.
 
...I kind of felt offended too when everyone is pretty much saying that everything I have learned via YouTube is not reliable and it's most probably all wrong.

No...I don't think that's what was being said, it's just thet the OP took this position that YouTube was THE source of everything, and no need for anything else.

There are actually some good YT info videos.
Pensado's Place has countless videos pertaining to audio recording that are top notch...though when you wathc them, you have to have some broader foundation already in place, as Dave Pensado assumes he's talking to audio guys already working and somewhat in-the-know...so he doesn't sepnd a lot of time getting iinto all the details or explaining every word and what it means, because he assumes the people watching already know that.
That's why it can be tricky depending on just some 5-minute video for actual *knowledge*. You might learn how some guy sets his compressor for guitar tracks....but that's not really learning the broader aspects of comps, etc...and you end up simply copynig what he does without really knowing why.
 
anyway... this isn't a conversation about books vs. youtube. if anyone has some "how to mix" advice, I'm all ears.

"side chaining" was the last, most useful thing posted. thanks, 'that guy'!

what I'm looking for, here, is "how to mix" advice, "beyond the basics".
 
but books, much as I revere them, ARE ancient technology.
That's called "damning with faint praise."
a picture is worth a thousand words, and a 5 minute video is worth an hour of reading.
Unless of course you happen to be deaf or blind......
By the way, does that mean that you only have to see something once to "get it" ?
you can say anything in a video you can write in a book, and, additionally, visually and audibly demonstrate it.
Many schoolkids or church goers will tell you that actually, simply saying something is no more a guarantee of reception than writing it down. Both reading and watching involve a whole set of interractions that go beyond what we normally think of when we hear "YouTube video" or "book."
books will quickly fall off a cliff not completely gone, but most people don't use typewriters, these days...
The only demonstrable difference between a typewriter and computer keyboard is lack of paper and typewriter ribbon. I think the typewriter was a crucial staging post on the way to what we now have in the same way that horse and carriage was on the way to the car.
a website IS a book, just free and accessible.
Sometimes. And the funky thing is, you have to read on many of them. :thumbs up:
I've often said that this site is like a living book.
books are like how people grunted before we learned to speak.
You mean like, unreadable {"Hoomba ! Groof ? Abunga !!"} ?
a book can't hold a candle to a youtube video.
That's from the stable of the kind of mindset that keeps the digital vs analog debate 'a raging on. Now for many people, the statement is true. And for many others, it isn't.
It isn't a competition but absolute statements like this quote ensure the taking of sides and the battle raging on.
But it's an imaginary one.There are fantastic videos. There are fantastic books.
you can say anything in a video you can write in a book, and, additionally, visually and audibly demonstrate it.
That's true but I find that I engage in a completely different way depending on whether I'm reading something or watching it. That's why they are both completely different mediums that have a modicum of overlap.
Youtube is the ultimate learning resource. if you like it or not.
I could have respected the statement {though I disagree with it} had you not added
if you like it or not
For all our wonderful technological sophistication, we seem often & repeatedly to fail dismally in being able to state a preference without stating it as some unchallengeable fact rather than just a bias. There are certain 'facts of life' ~ I think we just need to consistently learn to separate them from our opinions and biases.
Forgive my abruptness.
I forgive you, my child....
A046_Confession.jpg
I only skimmed this thread
Ah ! You should have read it.....it's not a YouTube video that you can digest in five minutes, you know ! :D
I honestly believe YouTube is being slammed way too hard from what I've just read.
YouTube will be slammed hard when it's referred to as the ultimate learning resource "whether you like it or not." It's like saying "I'm a great songwriter." You're setting yourself up nicely to be shot and slammed by anyone that doesn't agree.
There are perfectly legitimate videos on YouTube which has carried me through strongly as to what I know so far.
I agree. There are different mediums and people have different preferences for different things at different times.
I do read books and I have not come across anything contradictory between YouTube and Specialised books
But I have come across contradictory info in different books. And I have found the same in different videos. Because whether one writes or directs, people still have opinions and those opinions or ways of doing things may well conflict with someone else's.


what I'm looking for, here, is "how to mix" advice, "beyond the basics".
Would that be fried or boiled, Sir ? :D
 
Thanks for the forgiveness :-D

I think I needed that, ideally my first post would have been introducing myself and complimenting this site to how amazing the resources and members are, upon first coming here I was in total "awe" at how many threads people have made about many of the problems I faced while making music, and I have learned so much here. So I am pretty ashamed that my first post was constructed that way to be honest.

I have seen you around here a lot, making posts. I always enjoy reading them :)

Cheers.

James.
 
Utub might have some status as a learning tool IF videos were moderated, edited and properly peer reviewed before publication.
Books are books. I have an ereader, laptop, desktop and dumbphone. My preferences for reading is a book.
My preference for learning is 1:1 tutorial with an expert that can communicate well.
I recently needed to fix a carriage jam in a printer and found 6 Utub vids taht purported to address just my particular issue. None actually did.
I found a link online to a typed/wprd processed page with PICKCHUZ that helped me addressed and correct the problem after I'd read it, studied the snaps & followed the directions. Utub unedited is like a 192MP3.
 
Utub might have some status as a learning tool IF videos were moderated, edited and properly peer reviewed before publication.
Books are books. I have an ereader, laptop, desktop and dumbphone. My preferences for reading is a book.
My preference for learning is 1:1 tutorial with an expert that can communicate well.
I recently needed to fix a carriage jam in a printer and found 6 Utub vids taht purported to address just my particular issue. None actually did.
I found a link online to a typed/wprd processed page with PICKCHUZ that helped me addressed and correct the problem after I'd read it, studied the snaps & followed the directions. Utub unedited is like a 192MP3.

I have read A LOT of books, in fact almost all. (yes including that Mixing with Your Mind book you mentioned). Not only that, but I've experimented with the techniques provided in these books in order to get a first hand experience about how well they work. These books have a certain depth yes, but overall they are kind of pretty moderate when it comes to writing about high octane mega hit secrets. There are a few ones with a technical depth that is good, for instance "Total Recording", that you can use in order to get an overall pretty good basic understanding, I do recommend this book, although it will take a long time for you to finish reading it I can guarantee (because it's like reading the investment book Stock Market Analyzis by Benjamin Graham). What authors rarely discuss in these books is what truly works when you also consider the world of gear, the particular impact of particular gear and premium quality focused production philosophies. If you write such a book and describe the sound characteristics and impact of well known gear, I think the book will sell very well.

For me, the mixing engineer's handbook is what has made the most sense to me. It's an extremely oversimplified version of what mixing is about, but it makes you focus in the right direction and on the right things in a pretty straight forward way.

*******************************

Focus on this (in this order):

1) The relationship between the >>state of unconditional love<< and >>music beauty<<. Discover what happens over time to the quality of your music productions when everybody in your production team are tuned to being in and playing in the state of unconditional love. >>Great music is formed out of creating music in a particular state of being<<.

2) >>Scopes of impact and tuning art<< as they relate to each dimensional level in the multi-dimensional music crystal

3) >>Critical, precise, descriptive analytical listening<<, putting >>truthful definitions on sound characteristics<< and understanding what >>sound characteristics are needed in a mega hit mix in a particular music genre<< and >>knowing what qualities are best defined by your ears/brain and what qualities are best defined by your heart/emotion<< and how to >>effectively use both senses<< to effectively learn to create the music you want

4) The concept of >>Resonance acceleration<<, how do you best change the mix signal at the most fundamental level as the mix progresses in order to boost the overall perceived resonance

5) >>Balance balance balance<<. How do you balance the >>frequency spectrum<< and across the >>stereo spectrum<<

6) >>Signal optimization<<, how to >>remove micro phase shifts<< in a digital production, the >>relationship between high voltage and high vitality<<

7) Understand the concept of >>Signal-to-background noise<<, how do you lower the noise factor in a production in the most efficient way in order to focus the lisener's attention away from lower quality components in your production and to focus the listener's attention to the highest quality components

8) Signal economics through concepts such as >>frequency unmasking<<, >>fletcher-munson curve<<, >>side-chaining<< and >>parallel processing<<

*******************************
 
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:laughings: I'm just picturing Lemmy and the crew recording with "unconditional love". More probably reptile love...

I'm not disagreeing with what you've said, just that was a funny picture that popped in the noggin.
Very new-age-ish, zen balance sort of recording moogie you've got there, MW. A lot of good thought process in a very odd nomenclature. To recap:
1) be in the right mood to make the music you want to make. Beautiful music requires beauty from the performance.
2) tune and drive correctly: Thrash/death metal songs tuned to standard E tuning will not have the impact of a dropped C or A tuning.
3) music is as much about art as science.
4) great music knows where and when to be quiet or to really hit hard.
5) panning and EQ are essential.
6) gain staging and getting good tracking before mixing.
7) ??? Why should you have low quality stuff in your mix? If you're recording someone hitting on trash cans for effect, they don't need to be shut out, just balanced in. Maybe you're talking about proper tracking techniques gone bad?
8) Start with what's important to the mix (usually vocal or solo) and carve everything out that huts that sound. Is frequency unmasking kind of like subtractive EQ?

Some good thoughts, some I don't quite get. Just like most UToob vids.
 
ok, beyond the basics (EQ, compression, etc) there are a few mixing options I use all the time...
- doubling (stacking) vocals
- using 3 vocals, panning 1 hard left, 1 hard right
that kind of thing. but I'm not finding other (similar) mixing techniques, to expand my options. if anyone can list some techniques, or point me to where I can find them, I would appreciate it.

I do this sometime,but more on guitars and vocal harmonies.
But if you delay one of the panned track with about 17-19ms, you gone get a nice effect :-)
 
ok, beyond the basics (EQ, compression, etc) there are a few mixing options I use all the time...
- doubling (stacking) vocals
- using 3 vocals, panning 1 hard left, 1 hard right
that kind of thing. but I'm not finding other (similar) mixing techniques, to expand my options. if anyone can list some techniques, or point me to where I can find them, I would appreciate it.

I do this sometime, but more on Harmonies or guitars,
But if you delay one of the panned track with 19ms, you gone get a nice effect :-)

---------- Update ----------

ok, beyond the basics (EQ, compression, etc) there are a few mixing options I use all the time...
- doubling (stacking) vocals
- using 3 vocals, panning 1 hard left, 1 hard right
that kind of thing. but I'm not finding other (similar) mixing techniques, to expand my options. if anyone can list some techniques, or point me to where I can find them, I would appreciate it.



I'm sorry for the repeat but my Internet is corrupt the cable to USA is broken they say and I don't know how to delete a post :-(
 
:laughings: I'm just picturing Lemmy and the crew recording with "unconditional love". More probably reptile love...

I'm not disagreeing with what you've said, just that was a funny picture that popped in the noggin.
Very new-age-ish, zen balance sort of recording moogie you've got there, MW. A lot of good thought process in a very odd nomenclature. To recap:
1) be in the right mood to make the music you want to make. Beautiful music requires beauty from the performance.
2) tune and drive correctly: Thrash/death metal songs tuned to standard E tuning will not have the impact of a dropped C or A tuning.
3) music is as much about art as science.
4) great music knows where and when to be quiet or to really hit hard.
5) panning and EQ are essential.
6) gain staging and getting good tracking before mixing.
7) ??? Why should you have low quality stuff in your mix? If you're recording someone hitting on trash cans for effect, they don't need to be shut out, just balanced in. Maybe you're talking about proper tracking techniques gone bad?
8) Start with what's important to the mix (usually vocal or solo) and carve everything out that huts that sound. Is frequency unmasking kind of like subtractive EQ?

Some good thoughts, some I don't quite get. Just like most UToob vids.

Thanks and very good recap!

1) be in the right mood to make the music you want to make. Beautiful music requires beauty from the performance.

Exactly! Various moods/internal states will produce various results, but the state of unconditional love is very special because it releases the weight and limits added by less truthful states of being in a great way, because there are no judgments "in the way" of the playing. This you can test out for yourself by playing an instrument. If you play out of unconditional love a session after another, then over time your playing is gradually starting to open up. At first it will sound like a little baby just slamming the keys/drums, half of the tones will be false/out of tune/out of time, half of the tones will be hitting sweet spots. But what happens is that as you gradually over time tune yourself more and more with the instrument by playing in unconditional love, you will start entering musical territories that are really interesting! Inside it feels warm, beautiful and like having a laughing child inside, in the audience you will start noticing people smiling from the joy and release it brings, unconditional love brings a very joyful playfulness that makes you very light inside and it's like you can't help but smile when you experience the music of that and you want to stay in that moment as long as you can, you get addicted by it.

It's great if each musician first practices this art by themselves to optimize their individual playing abilities to max (practicing telling your instrument that you love yourself and others unconditionally), then when the musicians join and play together (practicing telling your instrument that you love others and yourself unconditionally), not only will it cause a resonance effect, but an extremely powerful and beautiful one! Maintaining and building on that state as a band, is key to great music by that band.

Now, this scales of course beyond playing an instrument to mixing, engineering, producing...

A good way of making this shift is to strive towards becoming more real and yourself in every moment and when you play an instrument or work creatively in the studio, to do so as passionately and freely as you possibly can, so that you create without limitations attached, which kind of has more focus about the being in the creative moment rather than focusing on the end result. Of course you can still have an intelligent approach to it, but in order to really move higher and higher it helps to basically through yourself at it with excitement and playfulness, it's great if you can playfully break technical rules and advance in the state of unconditional love, trusting that in this state you access and receive stuff that you otherwise don't do and hence are able to make a bigger musical imprint as a creative artist that feels great and that fuels your passion and creativity. Technical rules can become your worst enemies, the limits they create are there to be broken, but broken in an exciting and beautiful way.

2) tune and drive correctly: Thrash/death metal songs tuned to standard E tuning will not have the impact of a dropped C or A tuning.

Yes, this is a very big topic, the core of it is to abandon the standard 440 Hz tuning, which is out of tune.

3) music is as much about art as science.

Exactly, you could not have said it better!

4) great music knows where and when to be quiet or to really hit hard.

Yes. This is the concept of "Signal-to-background noise", your comment describes the impacts of it on the higher dimensional levels in the multi-dimensional music crystal, as a concept it also scales down to the lower dimensional levels, these are connected.

5) panning and EQ are essential.

Very essential, especially in combination with working to balance individual freq bands of individual sound sources on each speaker and between each speaker. When this is done it helps to remove distracting frequencies while you work, if you for instance work on optimizing the low end of the center, it helps to temporarily mute all side panned instruments and apply a low pass filter on say 1 kHz on the centered panned instruments, so that you can focus on the low frequencies you are working on without having the high frequencies distracting that balancing process.

6) gain staging and getting good tracking before mixing.

Yes also more than gain staging because gain staging is relative to the input and output capacity of your gear, but the actual gain staging process is a very important part of it. It is about efficiently utilizing the signal capacity of high voltage gear to make the input as vital as possible, then efficiently utilizing the signal capacity of high voltage gear to make the output as vital as possible, as well as also feeding high quality power into high quality clocking. The sum of these stages is what is causing the mix to have meat/fullness/vitality/power.

7) ??? Why should you have low quality stuff in your mix? If you're recording someone hitting on trash cans for effect, they don't need to be shut out, just balanced in. Maybe you're talking about proper tracking techniques gone bad?

The point excludes this worst case scenario. The meaning is more that once you have all the great sounding frequencies in there, you still are going to have to lean towards certain particularly well sounding frequencies and make enough room for those in the mix and to further amplify those. In other words it's about making the really great stuff fantastic at the cost of other not as great stuff (which is still great but great with a smaller scope of impact). This can be for instance a combination of really great playing on certain sound sources that contribute a lot to the vibe of the mix as a whole and therefore needs enough vitality/signal added to it.

8) Start with what's important to the mix (usually vocal or solo) and carve everything out that huts that sound. Is frequency unmasking kind of like subtractive EQ?

The most efficient way of learning frequency masking is to read the mixing engineer's handbook, in that book the author explains it in a good way. Frequency unmasking is essentially about understanding what frequencies are occupied by what sound sources and hence what to do with your mixing tools in order to minimize frequency cancellation. A good way of doing is to measure which sound source on what speaker occupies what frequency band by how much, so that you at least have a good understanding about what eats up the signal in the various frequency bands on each speaker. Then you might discover really costly stuff like some electric piano occupying more signal in the low frequency bands than the kick, snare, bass combined on both speakers. It does not have to be that bad, but the frequency unmasking focuses on making you aware of all of this and fixes it.

It is a very big topic and also a very important one. But essentially what it does is to release the available mix signal, so that you can add vitality to the mix and improve the use of the stereo field. It also helps to lighten up frequencies in each frequency band, in other words it helps to brighten and remove mix density which occupies a lot of signal at a low vitality gain due to how it makes mixes clip sooner and hence need to be reduced in signal level. In the frequency unmasking process you work a lot on the individual frequency band level, whether you do it additively or subtractively depends on whether you want some frequency band on sound source A on that speaker to have more vitality directly or whether you indirectly want to give some other sound sources on that frequency band on that speaker/those speakers more vitality by reserving signal in that frequency band by doing a cut on it on sound source A. An example is to remove some of the low end of the vocals that can be fairly loud as a result of the amount of signal you assign to the vocals, which in turn will make it possible to add vitality in those frequency bands to other sound sources such as kick drum and bass guitar. In the frequency unmasking process you also work a lot with taming transients in the various frequency bands on the individual speakers (using frequency band scoped expanding/compression, side chaining works great), so that important sound sources such as kick and snare can cut through well enough and so that you get a good stereo image, it enables you to add more input level across the whole mix in order to boost its vitality and without overloading the compressors/limiters as easily in the gain staging process.

A technique I'm currently discovering, and I'm sure this is common stuff to many out there with more experience than me, is to do more at lower doses at higher volumes. On my mixing journey so far I have somehow got the habit of doing less at higher doses at lower volumes, not that it has not sometimes worked great, but I'm discovering that it seems to work better to do it the other way around. For instance, right now I'm looking into certain very interesting reverbs such as an impulse response of the King's Chamber in the pyramid of Giza, just adding much enough to be noticable at high volume, but not more. Maybe it's a temporary thing, I just wanted to share what I'm currently looking into. :laughings:
 
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