EQ sweep

andrushkiwt

andrushkiwt

Well-known member
As I sweep through my guitar tracks, looking for the harsh/piercing tones, I can truly say that there are a plethora of instances of this once I pass 1khz up to about 4khz. The most annoying/obvious seems to consistently be 2.11khz, but it barely surpasses 1.39, 1.49, 2.18, 2.42, etc... as being overly loud and obnoxious. Are there really supposed to be that many spots with extraordinarily loud tones? I can't clamp down on them all with EQ, so I choose the most annoying one, but really, they would all need it.

My amp heads within Amplitube are usually the Dual Rec, Soldano, or Orange Rockerverb, and I usually keep the treble/presence at noon, along with the other knobs. If I pull back on the treble, there's obvious loss of clarity and same with the presence. It's almost as if....the right amount is too much. I know that doesn't make sense, and there must be a middleground somewhere, but hell I cannot find it. I don't know if my ears, or others, are super sensitive to this 1khz/4khz region (even more so than most, seeing as this is our most sensitive region as humans), or if I'm over-analyzing how harsh it truly is.

Here's a shot of the guitar bus during a mix. There are 4 guitar playing here, strumming F in drop D, but including all strings:

Screenshot (10).png

I guess my question is, are there supposed to be, or are there frequently, a dozen or so spots in the upper mids that if swept with EQ will poke out obnoxiously? I feel like that many is too much; that I should only be finding one or two within that range.

Is this a digital problem possibly...the analog vs digital thing?

Failed to mention earlier that my guitar is a 2001 Gibson Studio Gothic, dual humbuckers, and I usually play on the brightest pickups. The rhythm slot are too dull for distortion and only sound good on clean/crunch tones, not high gain tones.

here's a used one, if needed:

Gibson Les Paul Gothic 2001 Black with Gibson HSC | Reverb
 
"Is this a digital problem possibly...the analog vs digital thing"?

For me it is. But, the digital amp side seems to suffer most as the gain and effects go up.
 
If you sweep with a high/narrow Q and enough boost...you can make most of the frequencies sound nasty.

A bit wider Q and lower boost, and you should be able to find which if the upper mids is the issue VS which is needed for the tone. IF there's really one overly nasty spot, it should stick out.
With rhythm guitars it's better to step back and listen as a whole...since you're hitting multiple strings, and you're generating a lot of harmonics on top of the fundamentals.
 
miroslav said:
A bit wider Q and lower boost, and you should be able to find which if the upper mids is the issue VS which is needed for the tone. IF there's really one overly nasty spot, it should stick out.
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I'll try lowering the gain boost, maybe half, and seeing what pops out then in comparison. Because yes, everything in that region is popping out like mad.
 
Widen it - That said, it's true - Damn near any frequency during a sweep is going to sound "irritating" to some extent. How does it sound on its own? How does it sound in the context of the mix? Might not need anything.
 
Massive Master said:
Widen it - That said, it's true - Damn near any frequency during a sweep is going to sound "irritating" to some extent. How does it sound on its own? How does it sound in the context of the mix? Might not need anything.
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The most common critique, as I remember them, is that when the guitars and cymbals are going full gear during choruses, there is some harshness if cranked loudly. Cymbals are an easy fix. You can't decipher their main frequencies as well as you can a guitars, in my opinion anyway. A cut here and there in the cymbals, particularly around 3-4khz, and they're good. The guitars I have more trouble with. A cut in the wrong upper mid section and suddenly you have no definition. Too much roll off up top and they are dull. A small boost in the right spot can go a long way with rhythm guitars, so I've more focused on getting the right amount of bite/girth/etc... both out of the amp head, mic placement, and cabinet, and then from EQ.

On a professional, commercial record, if the guitars come across as harsh or piercing when loud, then someone obviously did something majorly wrong. On my recordings, I can't find that "major" mistake. I have to dig for it. Amp heads look good, all knobs about noonish. Cabs are good, mic placement is common methods, but then the final mix has that 1khz-4khz region poking through too much....so I check out the EQ and see that that area is booming with piercing frequencies when I sweep. If this is expected, than I'll look elsewhere. Maybe high gain, distorted guitars will have those resonances there.
 
Really appreciate you posting this andrushkiwt, I absolutely am struggling with the same thing with my real amp (Gibson LP Custom, Marshall JCM2000 DSL, 4X12 Marshall Cab). I am only using pre-effects (delay/compression/gate), but trying like hell to figure out how to get this thing to provide the clarity I need without those ear piercing sections. The more I dial up Presence to get the cut through clarity and crunch, the more those tones pop through and distract.

This has been a useful thread. I am trying to get it right out of the Cab for live sound as well, I'd like to record the tone rather than post produce it if possible (mostly anyhow, will always shape tone for the mix). I have been trying a cab mounted graphic EQ (24band) to shape the source sound post pre-amp (send/return on the amp) and try and cut the pierce, but I think the EQ sucks (it was used, cheap, I guess you get what you pay for).
 
I might suggest that the reason you're striving for clarity is that the guitar doesn't have room in the mix. It's competing with cymbals, vocals, keys, whatever else is in the mix (other guitars?)
 
mjbphotos said:
I might suggest that the reason you're striving for clarity is that the guitar doesn't have room in the mix. It's competing with cymbals, vocals, keys, whatever else is in the mix (other guitars?)
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No. This is on songs where there are only 2 guitars and bass, as well. The issue was never "how do I get clarity", the issue was "the guitars are harsh". Not exactly the same thing, but I understand what you're saying.

Good idea though. Thank you Mike.
 
andrushkiwt said:
As I sweep through my guitar tracks, looking for the harsh/piercing tones, I can truly say that there are a plethora of instances of this once I pass 1khz up to about 4khz. The most annoying/obvious seems to consistently be 2.11khz, but it barely surpasses 1.39, 1.49, 2.18, 2.42, etc... as being overly loud and obnoxious. Are there really supposed to be that many spots with extraordinarily loud tones? I can't clamp down on them all with EQ, so I choose the most annoying one, but really, they would all need it. ..
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I'm wondering why you would try to 'tame these in such narrow targets? (They're likely going to come and go along with the track?) You have a hot' region about 1 - 1 1/2K wide would be another way to look at it.
And (try :) 'sweep' just to determine the center and width of what you hear sticking out. Not the other way around.
 
andrushkiwt said:
No. This is on songs where there are only 2 guitars and bass, as well. The issue was never "how do I get clarity", the issue was "the guitars are harsh". Not exactly the same thing, but I understand what you're saying.

Good idea though. Thank you Mike.
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Well you said " If I pull back on the treble, there's obvious loss of clarity and same with the presence. " and timvracer said the same thing - that he's struggling for clarity.
 
mjbphotos said:
...that he's struggling for clarity.
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Lol! Aren't we all?

I'd bet there's just more distortion than there really needs to be. But then the quickest way to fix it is just to distort it more. ;)

In meatspace, we'd try moving the mic, and if that didn't work we'd swap the mic, and if that didn't work, we'd probably have to swap the speaker and if that didn't work we'd have to re-evaluate our expectations. You have like infinite options with sims, have you exhausted them all? Sometimes pounding the huge Marshall head through a 8" speaker is exactly what it needs. Maybe you won't brag about it on the macho man guitar tone threads, but if it works...

I can't remember the last time I did this kind of EQ sweeping unless it was for special effects, or maybe for demonstration purposes. If I was going to do it, though, I'd probably go with a cut rather than a boost. That way, you actually hear what it does to the track. Big boosts essentially just solo that one band, and unless you're doing archival or forensic work, there's no reason to get that microscopic about things.
 
ashcat_lt said:
Lol! Aren't we all?

I'd bet there's just more distortion than there really needs to be. But then the quickest way to fix it is just to distort it more. ;)

In meatspace, we'd try moving the mic, and if that didn't work we'd swap the mic, and if that didn't work, we'd probably have to swap the speaker and if that didn't work we'd have to re-evaluate our expectations. You have like infinite options with sims, have you exhausted them all? Sometimes pounding the huge Marshall head through a 8" speaker is exactly what it needs. Maybe you won't brag about it on the macho man guitar tone threads, but if it works...

I can't remember the last time I did this kind of EQ sweeping unless it was for special effects, or maybe for demonstration purposes. If I was going to do it, though, I'd probably go with a cut rather than a boost. That way, you actually hear what it does to the track. Big boosts essentially just solo that one band, and unless you're doing archival or forensic work, there's no reason to get that microscopic about things.
Click to expand...

Yeah to this. I HPF the guitars going in and it's a very rare occasion that any of them, even in a dense mix will ever see an EQ again. And this is both with live amps and in-the-box guitar noises.

Your amp choices all are of that nature of having some serious upper mid bumps going on as is the other poster with the JCM2000. This is where these amps live. And when you add more distortion, well, that's feeding the wolf.

I'm wondering if these nodes are really that present in the whole mix? I'm also wondering if you're heavily compressing your sims?
 
I've been under the impression that I would have to spend time dialing in the fizz and that was all it took for me to avoid sims, generally. Maybe, gain stage amp modules ?
 
Did you record originally by DI or mic amp. I would start applying post production EQ after the track had been recorded flat (no eq or effects). This gives you more control when applying echo, reverb,or any other effect.
 
It's always helpful if you can post some audio clips for us to hear.

I have noticed that certain cab impulses contain more of the piercing frequencies that I think you're referring to than others.

And, on a different note, I had some stems from "Nail The Mix" from a band called Saosin. The guitars had been tracked with amp sims and I ended up using some pretty drastic EQ moves to get what I wanted. I've added a screen shot from one of the guitar EQs.

Amp Sim EQ.JPG
 
Use a compressor on the guitars. That will tame some of that. If I need to cut some hi freqs I always cut the lowest bass also as this will bring the presence back because you can turn it up a bit more. But when it comes to mid/upper mid, I use a broader Q. Rarely is a mid freq standout in a narrow band--no dont judge with your eyes.
 
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