Dealing with idiotic band feedback

J

Jake_JW

New member
I've had a few bands over the last couple of years who have trouble articulating what they want with regards to mix revisions on projects - anyone here got any "top tips" on helping them say what they mean and not get their knickers in a twist? Seems to mostly be guitarists who have problems, does this line up with other people's experience?

A couple of recent examples:

What they said: 'one of the guitars sounds like it's got a radio effect pedal left on by accident'
What they meant: 'a small amount more drive on the rhythm guitar'

What they said: 'the distortion on the guitars isn't really noticable' - referring to quite a big/buzzy crunch tone
What they meant: Maybe this wasn't the guitar tone we wanted, were fine with it in the end once I explained the lack of a magic wand to make their amp sound like a different amp.

etc etc

Obviously, some bands are better at this than others - seems to be inversely proportional to having a copy of logic installed on a mac in their bedroom.

Thoughts?
 
This is unfortunately one of the side effects of easy home recording. Bands that should never be recorded can now get recorded for next to nothing, and wannabe "engineers/producers" that shouldn't be recording anyone at all can take money like a thief from these bad bands. It's a no win situation for anyone. Bad bands and bad engineers/producers are a bad mix.
 
I'll tell you how I deal with idiotic band feedback since I have become almost immune to it haha!

Just write down what they ask you to do so - let them see you're writing it - and let them go.
Just tell them that you will do what they want but you love your time mixing alone.

Do your things, finish your mixing and mastering and say that you've used all of the things they wanted (and that's not a lie too).
Chances are they will be happy because most of the stuff they ask you to change are not artistic... they are mixing oriented.

If you're not done with mixing it's really logical to deal with "turn this up", "turn this down",
"why do you EQ stuff just turn it louder! Aw no now it's too loud why?" stuff.

Just like the overdrive example you've given, what he might have really wanted to say to you, was to add some top end with the "overdrive thing" (with layering).

He did not know how to say it, but if you try out using the tip I gave you - the keeping notes stuff - and you're done with mixing,
I guarantee that 90% of their demands will be fulfilled, cause they are mixing oriented.

In short, don't let them have too much opinion on mixing terms especially when you're not finished yet.
You must be open but also know when to let them know that this is wrong mixing wise. It's for their own good anyway, you're not bad!

I used to become mad because these people hire you because they admit they don't know stuff, but act like they do know :confused:

Artistic ideas are mostly welcome but mixing advice... let this for the mixing engineer, that's why they're paying you right? :)
 
Even though you're miking the guitar amps, split the signal and DI a track for each guitar. Re-amp or use a sim to get a decent tone - after the session.
 
Re-amp or use a sim to get a decent tone - after the session.
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Haha, yeah, already done that - the tone they were talking about had been reamped through crunch channel on a mesa mk 3, not exactly hard to notice but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

The general feeling I'm getting here is that band feedback is quite often idiotic and that perhaps I've been lucky not having more awful opnions thrown at me?

Translating from band-speak into engineer speak is the main obstacle it would seem - probably not a way around this but I'm glad I asked.
 
Jake_JW said:
The general feeling I'm getting here is that band feedback is quite often idiotic and that perhaps I've been lucky not having more awful opnions thrown at me?
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How well would you feel if I told you that a drummer asked me once to use his snare with no wires and also asked me to use my SM57 I sometimes use for snares, way further just like OH?
Cause he read in a forum that it sounds "with more life" to it...

Guess you're fine :D
 
It's the band's job to have their equipment in good working order and have their shit together. It's your job as the engineer/producer to take care of this kind of stuff before you press record. If you can tell that their live guitar tone won't work or the drums need better tuning, then handle it. That's your job. Problems that arise later are the fault of one or the other or both. Are you guiding this band, or just capturing this band? There is a difference. That stuff needs to be ironed out beforehand. When the blind leads the blind, nothing good happens. It's easy to blame the band, but they go to you to record. If they could or wanted to do it themselves, they probably would.
 
A bit of capturing, a bit of guiding.

Nothing 'wrong' with their guitar tones, I'm wasnt blaming anyone for anything or put anyone at fault. I didn't intend a question on how to record, mostly I was asking about translating feedback in a more efficient way and ways to make engineer/producer/band dialogue a bit clearer, not trying to put anyone at fault. Perhaps I should have been more clear.
 
Greg_L said:
It's the band's job to have their equipment in good working order and have their shit together. It's your job as the engineer/producer to take care of this kind of stuff before you press record. If you can tell that their live guitar tone won't work or the drums need better tuning, then handle it. That's your job. Problems that arise later are the fault of one or the other or both. Are you guiding this band, or just capturing this band? There is a difference. That stuff needs to be ironed out beforehand. When the blind leads the blind, nothing good happens. It's easy to blame the band, but they go to you to record. If they could or wanted to do it themselves, they probably would.
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The text I highlighted... :facepalm:

You own a studio and you don't own the necessary gear to record? Really?

"Hey guys bring me $600 and find a driver with a van to move your gear cause I don't have anything here.
Can you also buy a couple of cables on your way here? And a coffee."

It's your job to have your own equipment ready for recording.
Do you really wanna use the band's equipment? Do you really want to use strings from 2004? Why don't you even use the $40 kick drum of the kid's garage?

So you're really recording someone and you ask them to bring their own gear. Gear that you don't know it sounds, gear you have never tested,
gear you've never used before, so it's all random?

Your job as an engineer is to provide the best for the guys that are paying you and if you don't even have the decency to use gear
that you know the results they're going to provide, before pressing the record button, then you're simply stealing money by charging more time guessing and hoping for the best.

You really can't give advice about problems that arise later, when you're giving advice of how to have the highest chance of getting problems later.
 
Jake_JW said:
A bit of capturing, a bit of guiding.

Nothing 'wrong' with their guitar tones, I'm wasnt blaming anyone for anything or put anyone at fault. I didn't intend a question on how to record, mostly I was asking about translating feedback in a more efficient way and ways to make engineer/producer/band dialogue a bit clearer, not trying to put anyone at fault. Perhaps I should have been more clear.
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That's a problem everyone has because describing sound is difficult and everyone has their own silly lingo. Have you ever heard a guitarist use terms like "creamy" or "woody"? Some guys say their drums sound "earthy". What the fucking fuck does that shit actually mean? It doesn't mean anything. It's just nonsense. It's how they hear things, and it might not be the way you hear things.

One thing you could try is to have the band/guitarist/drummer/whatever give you an example of what he's talking about instead of using dumb terms that don't actually man anything. Pull up youtube on a tablet, computer, or smartphone and have him show you an example of a sound he likes. Or a drum sound he's after. A vocal process or effect. Whatever. They might not be able to articulate it, but I bet they know a handful of recordings that illustrate the sound they're talking about. Everyone has influences.
 
Paschalis I. said:
The text I highlighted... :facepalm:

You own a studio and you don't own the necessary gear to record? Really?

"Hey guys bring me $600 and find a driver with a van to move your gear cause I don't have anything here.
Can you also buy a couple of cables on your way here? And a coffee."

It's your job to have your own equipment ready for recording.
Do you really wanna use the band's equipment? Do you really want to use strings from 2004? Why don't you even use the $40 kick drum of the kid's garage?

So you're really recording someone and you ask them to bring their own gear. Gear that you don't know it sounds, gear you have never tested,
gear you've never used before, so it's all random?

Your job as an engineer is to provide the best for the guys that are paying you and if you don't even have the decency to use gear
that you know the results they're going to provide, before pressing the record button, then you're simply stealing money by charging more time guessing and hoping for the best.

You really can't give advice about problems that arise later, when you're giving advice of how to have highest the chance of getting problems later.
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I'm starting to think you neither play music or record it at all. My post went way over your head. Seriously, the most basic concepts throw you for a loop. Or you're just trolling. :facepalm:
 
Jake_JW said:
Valid points, perhaps.

But what's that got to do with band dialogue?
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Did you see my post about youtube between the off-topic paschalis trolling? It might not work for you, but you could try it. It takes dialogue out of the equation. When I don't understand what someone is trying to explain to me, or they can't explain it well, I ask them to just show me an example and we usually can go from there.
 
My bad Greg, I did miss that one in between the bickering.

I suppose I haven't been putting enough emphasis on reference material, perhaps. I'll have to trial a more thorough reference process before/after tracking on my next few projects. I've had problems with some bands in the past saying 'we like this sound' and playing me something radically different from what they are playing genre/arrangement/tone wise, but I guess I should be more thorough with getting appropriate reference material - been getting lax.
It doesn't help that some of my work comes through a studio who do all the setup/organisation stuff so I dont actually meet some bands/have contact with them til a couple of days before we record, sometimes on the day only - not ideal!
 
Jake_JW said:
My bad Greg, I did miss that one in between the bickering.

I suppose I haven't been putting enough emphasis on reference material, perhaps. I'll have to trial a more thorough reference process before/after tracking on my next few projects. I've had problems with some bands in the past saying 'we like this sound' and playing me something radically different from what they are playing genre/arrangement wise, but I guess I should be more thorough with getting appropriate reference material - been getting lax.
It doesn't help that some of my work comes through a studio who do all the setup/organisation stuff so I dont actually meet some bands/have contact with them til a couple of days before we record, sometimes on the day only - not ideal!
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Yeah it's tough. I really do think a pre-reference is a good thing if you can get it. I've got some killer amps here so I've been doing some reamping for people lately. Sometimes they'll ask for "you know, a distorted sound". Lol. I'm like what? Come on. So I push them for an example. Anything. Give me someone's tone you like and we can try to get close to it. Don't just say "crunchy but smooth". That can be anything, like peanut butter.
 
Paschalis I. said:
You own a studio and you don't own the necessary gear to record? Really?
Click to expand...

You have to have the mics and recording stuff. If somebody offered me a great amp to record on, I'd give it a go but I did buy my own amplifier for a reason. I want to play and record with it.

If a guitarist shows up and says their guitar goes of tune a lot, you've got to question why he didn't have it looked at before coming over. My spidey sense would say the person is a bit wank.
 
Glad I'm not alone dealing with this - some of the things people say...wow. Do they even know what they sound like?

With work through studios I'm also obligated to go along with the merry feedback dance the bands lead them on, my current favourite being 'we're really not happy with the track', but actually it's just the guitarist/bassist wanting a tiny tweak done - they just want a positive reaction so they overstate their terms in the most obscene way possible to get a result other than 'what's the point? nobody else is going to care about that tiny little detail and the track sounds great!'.

Only had one band do that, but once is enough.
 
Schwarzenyaeger said:
You have to have the mics and recording stuff. If somebody offered me a great amp to record on, I'd give it a go but I did buy my own amplifier for a reason. I want to play and record with it.

If a guitarist shows up and says their guitar goes of tune a lot, you've got to question why he didn't have it looked at before coming over. My spidey sense would say the person is a bit wank.
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Exactly. Sure there are probably many bands with shit equipment that doesn't sound good. If Joe Studio Engineer Professional has better equipment, then by all means, try to have the band use it. Maybe they'll be open to it. A band that's ready for recording should have their shit together though. And a lot of guys do actually have their shit together. A lot of guys buy the guitars, amps, drums, etc they use because they like it, it's their sound, they're comfortable with it. To tell them otherwise because you think your studio gear "records better" is egocentric engineer idiocy. A lot of guys are sticklers about their sound, and it's the engineer's job to capture that. If the musician is open to tweaks and ideas, awesome. Everyone wins. This is where it needs to be determined if you're gonna play engineer or producer or both. Using myself as an example, I know my equipment and I know the sound I want. If I roll into a studio with my Gibsons and Marshalls and some engineer tells me to use his Telecaster plugged into a Roland Jazz Chorus because he thinks "it records better" I'd laugh in his idiot fucking face.
 
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