De-esser

andrushkiwt

andrushkiwt

Well-known member
I was working with a particular vocal track over the weekend that had quite a bit of sibilance, and it was made worse with the amp sim the vocals were run through. The vocal chain was: 1. EQ 2. Amp 3. De-ess and that track was sent to a buss with some further processing. The de-esser on the vocal track seemed to not be doing anything. I also say this because lowering the threshold to the minimum showed 0 gain reduction. I was using the same settings I always have: 20:1, fast attack, slow release, filter 5khz-max, and then various thresholds to see if anything happened. Yes, the plug-in is "on". Vocal buss chain is: 1. EQ 2. de-ess 3. comp 4. delay - w/ sidechains of reverb and the guitar compressor.

You can see I have two de-essers affecting the vocal track, one on the track itself, one on the buss. Which compressor "works" first as the signal passes through? the individual track, correct? If so, why is the de-esser on the buss working (well, somewhat, or else I wouldn't need to use another one) and the track plug-in isn't? Someone will probably think, "if you need to use 2 de-essers, fix the original problem", and I understand...but can we assume I cannot and that I can only work with this for the time being?

FYI- I see the gain rising and lowering with the vocals on the de-ess plug-in; it even rises above the threshold i set, but it shows no reduction, just simply flies over that point without being touched.
 
mjbphotos said:
My guess is the frequency range is not set right on the de-esser.
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I don't know, it's 5khz-max. same as i always use. it's the very end of some words, and the amp sim is exaggerating it. shouldn't i see mad gain reduction with the threshold bottomed out?
 
You could try replacing the de-esser with a compressor fed from a copy of the vocals if you don't have time to de-ess manually, using a sidechain with everything except sibilance EQ'd out. It gives you a bit more control than a de-essing plugin and takes a bit less time than automating everything, I normally find it's a good compromise if I dont have half an hour to de-ess everything manually.

In general I de-ess/EQ things before any distortion gets involved (amp sim), tweaking the sources on the way in will probably have a greater effect than de-essing after - adding harmonic content above/below the sibilance before doing something frequency sensitive like de-essing might affect how the de-esser triggers and how effective it is. Have you tried swapping the plugs around on the vocal channel?
 
Jake_JW said:
Have you tried swapping the plugs around on the vocal channel?
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i'm not sure if i moved the de-esser in front of the amp sim, i'll try it again later on. without the amp sim, it's tolerable and not bad at all...with it on, it gets pretty bad. i've decided to leave off the amp on that section, but i'd still like to know why the de-esser wasn't working - for future mixes.
 
andrushkiwt said:
i'd still like to know why the de-esser wasn't working - for future mixes.
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Me too - I've never had much luck with dedicated de-essers as it is, can't say for sure from your description.

Seems most likely to me that the amp sim is accentuating the sibilance at the top end/altering the high frequencies so they don't trigger the de-esser properly...I'm presuming the de-esser works properly without the amp sim in there?
 
Jake_JW said:
I'm presuming the de-esser works properly without the amp sim in there?
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yeah, wish i was at home so i can post a clip. i can try to upload the file, but it isn't cut into the proper sections - it'd be the entire, unfinished mix that's on my phone. i took the amp sim off, but you can still hear the sibilance, just definitely not as much. some might say its tolerable, others might say to tame it a bit.
 
I've found that the ReaFIR plugin makes a great de-esser. Set it to compression mode, turn the ratio to about 4:1 and adjust the threshold curve to hit just the frequency range of the sibilance.
 
Interesting.

Let us know if EQ->De-ess->amp sim works alright, cant think why it wouldnt, but it certainly sounds like the amp sim messing with the triggering on the de-esser :)
 
Jake_JW said:
Interesting.

Let us know if EQ->De-ess->amp sim works alright, cant think why it wouldnt, but it certainly sounds like the amp sim messing with the triggering on the de-esser :)
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Messed with it some more. What worked was moving the de-esser after the 4:1 compressor on the buss, instead of before it. Instantly, it started knocking off the sssssssstuff I wanted it to. Maybe there's a logic I'm missing here. All good now, and noted for the future.
 
Ahhh.... the DeEsser was working, and ducking the S's for ya.... but, then when it went into your compressor, you were compressing enough to mash everything again, lowering ranges around the S's thereby 'raising' the S's volume again.... follow?

I don't believe you said what you were working in (DAW) or what plugins you are working with....

Your bus comp is wideband, meaning it's effecting the entire frequency range.... a traditional compressor. All well and good except for it's also effecting areas you are having trouble and needing to address separately. Putting the DeEsser after the wideband comp is the right move in this case (sometimes it will work before too... it just depends on how much you are compressing afterward)....

If you have problems with this a lot - Sibilance - and if you are unhappy with your DeEsser, I'd look at Waves ... I'm personally a huge fan of C4 or C6 Multiband compressors for DeEssing... while they aren't DeEssers, they can function the same, by bypassing bands you don't want to compress, and using a single band for DeEssing... I love this, as I can get WAY more dialed in than most DeEssers.... and, they are far more than that obviously, so they make a very well rounded tool. They are also handy for compressing only the frequency ranges that need it, rather than everything like a wideband does - or being able to address each band with it's own tailored compression (traditional use)....

The same method as DeEssing can be applied to other frequency ranges not just in the high end, where you might have honky or woofy frequencies build up at certain parts of vocals... or even guitar or bass parts where certain notes or ranges get way louder .....

Just figured I'd toss that out there since we are talking DeEssing... sorry if I got carried away. I just like using multiband comps for this, rather than DeEssers... thought it was worth a note :)
 
ShortySMC said:
Ahhh.... the DeEsser was working, and ducking the S's for ya.... but, then when it went into your compressor, you were compressing enough to mash everything again, lowering ranges around the S's thereby 'raising' the S's volume again.... follow?

I don't believe you said what you were working in (DAW) or what plugins you are working with....

Your bus comp is wideband, meaning it's effecting the entire frequency range.... a traditional compressor. All well and good except for it's also effecting areas you are having trouble and needing to address separately. Putting the DeEsser after the wideband comp is the right move in this case (sometimes it will work before too... it just depends on how much you are compressing afterward)....

If you have problems with this a lot - Sibilance - and if you are unhappy with your DeEsser, I'd look at Waves ... I'm personally a huge fan of C4 or C6 Multiband compressors for DeEssing... while they aren't DeEssers, they can function the same, by bypassing bands you don't want to compress, and using a single band for DeEssing... I love this, as I can get WAY more dialed in than most DeEssers.... and, they are far more than that obviously, so they make a very well rounded tool. They are also handy for compressing only the frequency ranges that need it, rather than everything like a wideband does - or being able to address each band with it's own tailored compression (traditional use)....

The same method as DeEssing can be applied to other frequency ranges not just in the high end, where you might have honky or woofy frequencies build up at certain parts of vocals... or even guitar or bass parts where certain notes or ranges get way louder .....

Just figured I'd toss that out there since we are talking DeEssing... sorry if I got carried away. I just like using multiband comps for this, rather than DeEssers... thought it was worth a note :)
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is there a feature/function that i'm not recalling that makes a MBC better suited for the job? I believe both have the usual "attack, release, frequency dial, ratio" etc... In other words, isn't bypassing the unused bands the same as using a de-esser with the frequency knob dialed in?
 
Massive Master said:
*5* kHz?!? Tops?!?

I don't think I've ever used a de-esser that low. 10kHz bottom (maybe). The stuff that usually drives me nuts is between 12-15kHz.
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what i meant was it's set to start acting on 5.6 khz and runs through to the max, which is 20khz in my DAW. Not 5/max, but 5 THROUGH max. 5.6 to be exact. sorry
 
I have never found a de-esser that really worked without effecting the track in mostly a negative way. Now I just use volume automation and it is much better IMO. Granted a bit more work but not that bad and in the end produces a much more natural sounding vocal.
 
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