controlling cymbal bleed

thomaswomas

New member
hi everyone,

i'm looking for a few tips on how to get rid of cymbal bleed through tom mics. throughout all my time recording and mixing, the one thing i always have trouble with is this.

i try and eq the cymbals out but the frequencies i need to cut tend to be the ones which add attack to the toms resulting in the toms sounding muffled. so when i try and add attack and some brightness to the toms, the cymbals come out too much and sound a bit harsh.

i've tried editing each tom track which works some times but for certain tracks where there are quick tom rolls with cymbal crashes mixed in, you can hear the edits in the mix. i've also tried gates but this has the same effect.

has anyone got any tips on how to deal with this problem. what eg settings do you guys use? i could do with comparing someone elses settings to mine

thanks
 
For this type of problem EQ probably isn't going to help you too much, for the very kind pf reasons you found out; the two parts of the kit just share too many important frequencies. A low pass rolloff on the toms above 5k or so may help some, but that'll still let most of the cymbals through too, probably.

First off, ask the drummer not to go so apeshit animal on the cymbals the way he might likely be doing, and to put more authority and control into his tom hits as well. IME, as often as not, such problems are as much sloppy studio drumming technique as anything else.

Second, try re-positioning your cardioids (they are cadioids, I assume) in such a way whereas their deadest points - ~140° and 220° are facing the most obtrusive cymbal(s).

If the first two don't cut it (though in most cases they should), you could always try to position your mics under the toms pointing up, switching the polarity on that line.

G.
 
I always from day one as a drummer moved my cymbals farther away from the toms when recording if isolation was needed on that track. But you will find most drummers are unmovable on repositioning anything but try it if you can.
 
On a similar note... I have been having the same problem but with the hi hat bleeding into the snare mic. I have used an sm 57, a c418, and a beyer m201 with no difference (in bleed, not sound). The mic is angled so the HH is in the dead spot as much as possible. This has been with multiple drummers. Some more, some less apeshit. Gating sometines helps but you still get the sound when the gate opens. Sometimes the HH is louder than the snare. Any sage words?
 
The most important thing to keep in mind, and I can't stress this enough ... is that, in a recording situation, the hi-hats shouldn't be open for any more than a second or two at a time.

The effect of open hi-hats on a snare track are not something that can be minimized by any natural methods, other than sample replacement (i.e. drumagog).

Let me put it to you this way: A hi-hat is not a ride cymbal, and it shouldn't be played like one.

I will repeat, just in case I didn't make it clear: A hi-hat is not a ride cymbal. It is not a crash cymbal. It is meant to be played closed ... with a few random openings only for accent.

Thank you.
 
I don't have pics. sorry. To be clearer, I meant what I think Daisy is saying.....When the snare is not being hit the hh is as loud as the snare. This IS when it is played open as a steady beat. And having the shit smashed out of it as well. I am all analog so using samples is not an option...sort of a snob that way. :D
 
To say that the hat is as loud as the snare and then complain about bleed is kinda like saying I jabbed a hot poker up my nose and damn does it hurt :). The natural response is to say, either don't jam that poker up your nose or accept the pain when you do.

Think about it; if you have the hat in the null of your cardioid and its as loud as the snare that the cardioid is jammed into, that means that the drummer is actually playing the hat LOUDER than the snare. That's a problem.

If the hat is louder than the snare, I'd say either tell the drummer to play the snare like a snare and hit the damn thing harder, play the hat like a hat and don hit the damn thing so hard, or accept the fat that the drummer plays the hat is as loud as the snare and embrace the bleed, because that's the blind dog drumming technique he's giving you to work with. That dog just won't hunt.

G.
 
I will repeat, just in case I didn't make it clear: A hi-hat is not a ride cymbal. It is not a crash cymbal. It is meant to be played closed ... with a few random openings only for accent.

I like open hats, ok your gaon get bleed but if the mic and kit are set up well and the drummer is good then there shouldnt be a problem.

Eck
 
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has anyone got any tips on how to deal with this problem.

Make sure the the cymbals sound good on the tracks they are bleeding onto. Drums bleed, especially if they are played inconsistently or very hard. Sometimes the best you can do is make friends with the bleed. Double check all the mics for phase issues and make sure the kit sounds good with all the mics up.

Not the ideal situation, but its sometimes better than trying to get an unskilled drummer to alter their technique.
 
thanks for all the advice and tips. i forgot to mention in my original post that i'm a drummer and play the drums on most of the recordings i do, unless i'm recording another band.

i understand all the issues with playing hi-hats too hard or the snare too soft, but i'm a fairly competent drummer and i've done quite a few sessions in various studios with different producers and only once i've been asked to raise the height of my cymbals.

that's why i'm a little confused. if my playing levels and consistency are fine for those guys, then it must be down to how i'm recording my kit or how i'm mixing.

one thing that leans towards the suggestion that it's a mix thing is that my last band had one of our self recorded demos mixed by a top mixing engineer and the difference in the cymbal sound between our mix and his was huge.

i should add that on the odd occasion, the bleed sounds good and adds some body to the cymbals but obviously it would be nice to have bit more control.

anyways, thanks for your time guys
 
deessers (frequency dependent compressor) like the inexpensive dbx 263 are fantastically effective for getting cymbals and HH out of other mics. i'm sure setting up a deesser either 'in the box' or with a decent comp like the rnc and a side chain would be equally effective.

they work like a charm. i've created snare tracks out of what seem to be hi hat tracks. check em out.

Mike
 
As of 2017, a new mic shield is designed exactly for reducing cymbal dominance

As of 2017, there is a product called Crash Guard, which is offered on at least 1 of the major online music equipment retailers, selling at $40 each.

Basically, it is a mic-sized sound shield intended to shield off cymbal, hence "crash," dominance while using overhead condensers mic'ing configurations. However, as many had mentioned there are factors of mic' positioning and skill level of the drummer to take into account.

Just how much this device benefit the recording is probably still dependent upon these other factors to a sizable degree.

The De-esser post looked worth exploring in conjunction with factors one may control, which may or may not include the use of the Crash Guard of benefit before manipulating the signal.

I haven't yet used it, but at that price it may be a first step in controlling cymbal prominence in what the condensers pick up.

Once you find a retailer online that sells it, you can check out the reviews.

I intend to also try it for controlling semi-open headphone bleed over by placing it on the vocal mic.

I thought I'd add this new information to this old thread since threads are resources ongoingly visited and new technology is progressively introduced in the marketplace.

Hope this is helpful, JeffF.
 
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To the OP, I spent a ton of time trying to solve this on tracks I was mixing (and for which I had no ability to re-track). I had the exact issue is that when I tried to accentuate/shape the kick and toms, the high hat would come through. I tried to EQ/LPF the sounds out, but especially with the kick, if I tried to get any "snap" at all with the kick, it came with the ring of the high-hat. It was very frustrating, as it was also inconsistent based on how hard the high-hat was being hit (and how open the hat is).

I tried de-essing, EQ, various transient shaper settings, but could not get to a satisfactory kick sound. So I never found a solution using the pure tracks I was given.

So I had to go to drum replacement for my kicks and snares (did not need to for the toms, but it was available). I preserved the original "boom" of the original kick, but cut out completely anything above 500hz, and then blended that with samples using a drum replacer to get to a solid kick sound with a proper "snap" included, yet keeping the original blended in to preserve the feel of the artist.

I am very happy with where I ended up, except for the number of hours I spent on it!

NOTE: I was able to give feedback to the artist for future songs, and for the kick, they properly isolated the kick mic (using lots of blankets, building a tunnel, etc.), and this made a noticeable improvement on the kick.
 
Interesting, although I'm not sure how keen I am on the idea.
I always looked at a kit as a kit. The overhead mics, for me, are there to capture the kit and anything else there is a spot-support.

With that view point, if any one piece is dominating then there's something wrong with the kit, the room or the mic position.

All of this is said with the understanding that someone else may approach and view it a totally different way but, for example,
last time I recorded a kit the hi-hat was dominating the snare and overhead mics.

A combination of adjusting overhead axis, adjusting snare mic position, using a tighter pattern snare mic, and using a slightly less abrasive hat sorted it right out.

As I say, it's only my way of looking at it, but if someone released a tool to prevent my guitar's B string from dominating the rest, I'd be asking why it dominates in the first place and making sure string gauge is correct.

I have, on the other hand, seen people in professional studios set up makeshift baffles between snare+hihat to limit hat bleed into the snare mic so...yeah; No rules.

Just my thoughts. :)
 
Oops. I just replied to [MENTION=195285]JeffF[/MENTION] thinking it was a new thread.
I have no idea what the context is.....sorry. :p
 
I was thinking that if thomaswomas had not figured it out in 9 years it would be time to give it all up.

OLD THREAD!

holy thread resurrection.jpg
 
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