Brighter Frequencies get Louder?

Nola

Nola

Well-known member
Hey guys, so I'm mixing at a low level and things sound great, but when I turn the monitor up all the way the mix suddenly sounds brighter/harsher. Is this a known phenomena? If so, how should we be mixing to compensate for it?

Also, the vocal seemed to be sitting perfectly at the lower level, and then when I cranked things the vocal sounded too loud.

I'm using almost no compression so it's probably not related to that. I am using some EQ.

Thanks.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Human hearing is nonlinear, it becomes more sensitive to the top and bottom of its range at higher volumes. The usual solution is to mix at about 85dB SPL. I usually mix lower but check regularly at higher volumes. I also get up and walk around once in a while to hear what happens away from the sweet spot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
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Cool, thanks Boulder.

I don't have any meters that show SPL, so how would I know what 85db is?
If my mix breaks up and gets brighter/harsher at higher volumes is that normal and not necessarily a bad mix? I keep remixing after I jack things up all the way and hear that, and it's driving me nuts.

Also, wouldn't mastering (if using compression or limiting to make things louder) also make the mix brighter? How do mastering engineers counter that phenomena?
 
Nola said:
I don't have any meters that show SPL, so how would I know what 85db is?
If my mix breaks up and gets brighter/harsher at higher volumes is that normal and not necessarily a bad mix? I keep remixing after I jack things up all the way and hear that, and it's driving me nuts.
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SPL meters are not too expensive. I think you can get an app for a smartphone that's close enough for this application.

Nola said:
Also, wouldn't mastering (if using compression or limiting to make things louder) also make the mix brighter? How do mastering engineers counter that phenomena?
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Compression can do a lot of things, including make things less bright. Mastering engineers have control of overall eq as well as compression, limiting etc. so they can listen to the output and decide what to do accordingly. A good mastering engineer would notice when he's making things worse. But based on the mastering job I was asked to review last night (done by a pro mastering house in a major music town) there's no guarantee of that.
 
Didn't think of that earlier (because I hate active speakers), but if you're running active speakers and you crank them up, if there's a protection circuit that kicks in, it's almost definitely going to squelch the LF driver long before the HF driver. And if smaller speakers, that's typically going to happen at far lower SPL's than with larger speakers with higher power handling.

-- OR --

There are just some irritating upper mid and high frequencies going on that aren't really irritating until they reach a certain SPL.
 
At lower volumes, the dynamic difference between loud and soft gets hard to distinguish. This is one of the reasons why a seemingly balanced mix will get unbalanced at higher volumes.

That phenomenon is the reason that you need to at least check your mixes at around 85db spl. That is the sweet spot where our hearing and the playback systems are both about as flat as they are going to be.

A mix that is balanced at 85db spl will still be balanced at low volume and higher volumes.
 
When mixing I often adjust the volume up and down, mix quiet, give it a loud run through, have a break, turn it right down low, and in my case change monitors. It gives a good perspective on how different people listen to your mixes.

The harsh tops could be the monitors you are using and the room you are in, how are the tops on a different set of speakers in another room?

Alan.
 
I'm in a small apartment and in a corner so I never got monitors and just use headphones. They're good headphones (seinheisser hd580s) that I know well and are mostly flat. I don't know how to test SPL on them unless I hold up a meter to the headphone. Now that I know this is a real thing, I'll just use common sense.
 
Hm, it's my only option due to space and money. I posted the song in the mix clinic so it's out there for public scrutiny. That's the best I can do on this setup.
 
Nola said:
Hm, it's my only option due to space and money. I posted the song in the mix clinic so it's out there for public scrutiny. That's the best I can do on this setup.
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I understand your limitations, but I think there lies the problem, check the mixes out on stereos around the place and see if it has the same problem.

Alan.
 
Get a meter app.for your phone, then use it to meter a stereo so that you can hear what 85db sounds like. Then go back to the headphones and make them about that loud.

Is there any other system you can check it out on? Home stereo, car stereo ,etc... anything with speakers will help.
 
Nola said:
Hm, it's my only option due to space and money. I posted the song in the mix clinic so it's out there for public scrutiny. That's the best I can do on this setup.
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Here's a question, If you compared a commercial track similar to yours on your system, at these higher volumes would it also get harsh and brighter?
 
mixsit said:
Here's a question, If you compared a commercial track similar to yours on your system, at these higher volumes would it also get harsh and brighter?
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Yes sir, it does. Does the headphone amp matter in this regard? I'm plugging into the focusrite interface headphone jack.

Thanks, Farview, I'll look into that.
 
Nola said:
I'm in a small apartment and in a corner so I never got monitors and just use headphones. They're good headphones (seinheisser hd580s) that I know well and are mostly flat. I don't know how to test SPL on them unless I hold up a meter to the headphone. Now that I know this is a real thing, I'll just use common sense.
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You said you 'turn the monitor up'. Headphones is the culprit.
 
Nola said:
Yes sir, it does. Does the headphone amp matter in this regard? I'm plugging into the focusrite interface headphone jack.

Thanks, Farview, I'll look into that.
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It could be the headphones, the headphone amp breaking up, etc... we also have no idea how loud you have it turned up. You could simply be clipping the amp or headphones. If commercial mixes have this problem too, it's most likely the equipment.
 
witzendoz said:
I see the problem, you cannot final mix only on headphones, I dare anyone to say different.
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With you there. "Flat" or not. The "flattest" headphones you can find will sound totally different after drinking a glass of water. And they're covering your ears. Everything sounds decent through headphones....
 
I rough-mix with nice headphones while I'm tracking, DT-770 Pro from BeyerDynamic. Great phones, around $200.

But when the tracking is completely finished, I do my final mixes on a set of M-Audio BX8s. What I think sounds like a perfect mix through the phones, always needs slight adjustments when I play the finished product through the speakers.
 
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