Bass Frequency response adjustments

Bruthish

Hair Metal Roxx!
OK, need bass guitar mixing advice. and its probably a really elementary question.

So, is actual loudness(dB) actually the same as perceived loudness?

My question is if I hit an "A" note on the bass, check the frequency response on my analyzer and it peaks at +12dB, and then I hit an "E" note and it peaks at say +16dB.....if I were to adjust the EQ on the "E" notes response to bring it down to +12dB would it automatically sound level? If So, is that part of the key to getting level bass it to try and have a flat/even response throughout the song?
 
You are getting way to technical. The lower the frequency the more energy the note has. What you need to do is put the analyser away and listen with your ears. Also if you want to smooth the bass volume you could use a little compression to make it sit in the song?

Alan.
 
I haven't used the analyzer yet to do this, as it was hypothetical, sorry should have said that. I am using my ears, but when a note seems louder than the rest, I try to EQ it down and it ends up taking other notes down with it. So maybe a tighter Q in the EQ?
 
I have used a parametric eq to put down an offending note in the past, if I was brutal in my comments, load single notes is usually a playing technique problem or and instrument setup problem. Sometimes you get the odd loud note but smooth playing should produce even note volume. As I said a little compression, or a lot of compression depending on the style of music, will even notes out. I nearly always have some kind of compression on bass as I find it tightens it up in the mix. I am a bass player by the way.

There could be another problem, I have read your other thread, that you monitoring situation / room acoustics is not reproducing an accurate bass reproduction.

Alan.
 
I have used a parametric eq to put down an offending note in the past, if I was brutal in my comments, load single notes is usually a playing technique problem or and instrument setup problem. Sometimes you get the odd loud note but smooth playing should produce even note volume. As I said a little compression, or a lot of compression depending on the style of music, will even notes out. I nearly always have some kind of compression on bass as I find it tightens it up in the mix. I am a bass player by the way.

There could be another problem, I have read your other thread, that you monitoring situation / room acoustics is not reproducing an accurate bass reproduction.

Alan.

Yes I almost always use compressor on bass too. It does smooth it out quite a bit but doesn't seem to get rid of offending notes. Low "G" seems to be an issue. Every other note can sound find and when you hit that it sounds like you just hit a sub-frequency. So I try to bring the level down on the "G" and it seems to have effects on the other notes as well and I lose bottom end.

As you mentioned, my listening environment is not the best. I have a dedicated room but its not treated. So this could play a big part on everything on this thread and the other.
 
^^^+1
Fletcher munson curve shows that we don't hear all frequencies equally and I know we're talking bass but the 2nd,3rd fourth harmonics etc are going to affect perceived loudness along with the fundamental. I personally prefer the sound of slight compression on bass, especially helpful since most instruments, but especially bass, seem to have a resonant frequency that is noticeably louder . I wouldn't use db(SPL) as an "even" loudness guide since its a supposed to represent the elusive average level and really does change with frequency according to my spl meter anyway. Volume automation and dynamic eq's, and of course frequency dependent eq can also help an uneven sounding track
 
As you mentioned, my listening environment is not the best. I have a dedicated room but its not treated. So this could play a big part on everything on this thread and the other.

It will, bass is usually the hardest to mix correctly, and if the room is not right it is the first thing to show up wrong. Put a couple of bass traps in the room, then if there is still a problem then look at the eq. G is about 49hz.

Alan.
 
Compression and distortion will fix most of the problem.

Another thing to consider is adding midrange growl around 800hz. Getting the midrange right and not worrying so much about the low end can help it sit in the mix better, and translate to more systems better as well.
 
Yes I almost always use compressor on bass too. It does smooth it out quite a bit but doesn't seem to get rid of offending notes. Low "G" seems to be an issue. Every other note can sound find and when you hit that it sounds like you just hit a sub-frequency. So I try to bring the level down on the "G" and it seems to have effects on the other notes as well and I lose bottom end.

As you mentioned, my listening environment is not the best. I have a dedicated room but its not treated. So this could play a big part on everything on this thread and the other.

I found trying to cut a single note with narrow filter dicey. Also be sure it's actually a note sticking out rather than chasing a room mode. As in stand in different places in the room and you will see the frequencies shift. Or taken further.. You need to move about in a smallish rooms to get an average in the low range. 'Some treatment' isn't going to fix this down there.

One last, sometimes what seems to be too much of some notes on a bass track can actually be a duration problem. That can come up in pile-up with the kick. ...Adds on to the room's ringing/duration as well.
 
If there was no other music playing, only a bass guitar, I guess in theory the meter would be correct.

But in a song, meters are worthless because your kick, vocals, and other instruments will contain some bass elements which could phase out the bass guitar.

For example, you could have a bass guitar part at +6db and then when it goes up +12db at the same time a boomy kick could come and you could get a phase wipe out that cuts it to +2dbs.

At some point its all by ear. Meters won't work.
 
If there was no other music playing, only a bass guitar, I guess in theory the meter would be correct.

But in a song, meters are worthless because your kick, vocals, and other instruments will contain some bass elements which could phase out the bass guitar.

For example, you could have a bass guitar part at +6db and then when it goes up +12db at the same time a boomy kick could come and you could get a phase wipe out that cuts it to +2dbs.

At some point its all by ear. Meters won't work.

Ding! :>)
And thus the caution re; 'cut a spot for one thing and another for the 'other thing..' 'complementary eq, before knowing their existing states, and their combined..
 
Loop a section of your mix and walk around your room as you listen. If the offending note isn't as offending, or other notes are now sticking out, you know it's your room and not necessarily your mix.

Also, treat your room! It'll never be perfect, but you can improve it dramatically with some treatment.
 
This is why bass is the most popular compressed track. To get a nice smooth volume level out of it.
I used to think that this was just a peculiarity of the instrument. Like it was just wildly Dynamic and every note could be different. Over the years I've come to realize this isn't true however. Unless the guitar is truly fucked, it usually is actually just in the performance. I think it IS true that bass is more sensitive to playing dynamics, but an actually good bassist with any decent bass shouldn't really need compression.

Of course, this definitely assumes that the room isn't messing with you. The talk above about other instruments masking the bass is an arrangement issue in my mind. If you don't want them to mask each other, then change what one of them plays. If different notes really are different levels, I'd try a slowish leveling thing first. I use ReaComp with a long RMS window and lookahead, but those vocal leveler type plugs could do pretty well, too.

Edit - Not to say don't compress it. Bass guitar is one of the few instruments where you can usually just smash it into submission to compensate for poor performance dynamics without screwing it up too bad.
 
I used to think that this was just a peculiarity of the instrument. Like it was just wildly Dynamic and every note could be different. Over the years I've come to realize this isn't true however. Unless the guitar is truly fucked, it usually is actually just in the performance. I think it IS true that bass is more sensitive to playing dynamics, but an actually good bassist with any decent bass shouldn't really need compression.

:thumbs up:

I use often to run the bass into a comp/limiter to smooth it out...but over the years, I've gotten more and more away from that unless it's some particularly awkward bass part that is hard to deal with during playing.
I'm not a bass "player"...so my lines are pretty basic :-)D)...but I can control my playing dynamics rather well.

That said, once in the DAW...if a note is really sticking out or a muffed a couple and they need more level...that's an easy edit, without strapping a comp on the track as the default solution.
 
The part is going to determine what you need on the bass at tracking. If there is a lot of articulation, perhaps a lot of string popping or thumb slapping, then you will want a limiter FIRST and then some sort of compression. Something that has a lot of quarter and half notes requires someone playing it with a good technique, and won't require nearly as much response help. Using a pick on the bass will require a fast response compressor in order to catch the pick sounds and still retain the fundamental of the note.

Let's talk about the fundamental for a moment. I've been a bass player for almost 50 years and have recorded for most of that time as a bassist or a producer/engineer capturing other bassists. First, and this is where so many people make their mistake....bass guitar does NOT require a bunch of low-end accentuation in order to reproduce the fundamental of the note in the context of a mix of instruments and vocals.

I've made completely killer sounding bass tracks with a Deluxe Reverb or equivalent at a very low volume with a mic and a preamp. Does anyone think a Deluxe is voiced for bass? Try it sometime....you will never use anything else.

Meters and analyzers have nothing to do with how the bass sits in a track.

Bass instruments require the greatest attention to arrangement. A messy bass part will destroy a song faster than anything else.

I know....you'll say..."But Mr.Cavedog if I HPF my bass above the lowest note's fundamental won't it completely disappear??!!" I'll say.."HAH!" try it
 
The part is going to determine what you need on the bass at tracking. If there is a lot of articulation, perhaps a lot of string popping or thumb slapping, then you will want a limiter FIRST and then some sort of compression. Something that has a lot of quarter and half notes requires someone playing it with a good technique, and won't require nearly as much response help. Using a pick on the bass will require a fast response compressor in order to catch the pick sounds and still retain the fundamental of the note.

Let's talk about the fundamental for a moment. I've been a bass player for almost 50 years and have recorded for most of that time as a bassist or a producer/engineer capturing other bassists. First, and this is where so many people make their mistake....bass guitar does NOT require a bunch of low-end accentuation in order to reproduce the fundamental of the note in the context of a mix of instruments and vocals.

I've made completely killer sounding bass tracks with a Deluxe Reverb or equivalent at a very low volume with a mic and a preamp. Does anyone think a Deluxe is voiced for bass? Try it sometime....you will never use anything else.

Meters and analyzers have nothing to do with how the bass sits in a track.

Bass instruments require the greatest attention to arrangement. A messy bass part will destroy a song faster than anything else.

I know....you'll say..."But Mr.Cavedog if I HPF my bass above the lowest note's fundamental won't it completely disappear??!!" I'll say.."HAH!" try it

Awesome! Word people :>)

I had a guy, experienced bass player he was come in, but used a very light touch as his means of being 'smooth and consistent.
But, we had a chat' ...re 'articulation and/or 'where 'round fundamental bass notes might be supposed to sit in the mixes. More importantly 'how? Dumped in my lap it was, where .. or how. Now it's my job to make the bass speak on not full range systems?

Hmm. In nasty 'retrospect, next time I'll just roll off 150 and below on 'playback and.. :rolleyes: :p
 
I have been using multiple EQ's on my playback mix bass tracks with no compression on those....and then bussing to another track and adding the compression there and blending the two into an Aux master with a final touch of compression. But zero compression on the EQ'd track. I find it sits in the mix better, I can really shape the tone for the song, and I get no artifacts from the eq and compression working together.

Lately I'm really liking the UAD Cambridge EQ, the Waves Scheps 73 EQ, and an API 550B. My compressor choice on the bussed track is JST Finality Advanced (which everyone should have!!) and then I strap an 1176 across the Aux Master.

Of course this really only works if it's tracked correctly and none of the plugins are for repair.
 
What genre are we talking about again? I figured out recently that for most things on the Rock side, you can just pound it into an SVT (or decent emulation thereof) and call it a day. :cool:
 
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