Any tips on keeping large numbers of vocal tracks singing chorus bits under control

Armistice

Armistice

Son of Yoda
Howdy

I have 30 vocal tracks singing various bits of a chorus. 5 different parts. Some parts have 8 voices, some 6, some 4. They're all me, so I can't have people singing together to get the track count down. It just sort of ended this way. The softer the part, the more voices sing it, generally...

Starts out with only one part going, but towards the end all five are going at once (what can I say, I like big choruses!) where they overlap, which isn't all the time. I have them grouped by part and can EQ, compress by group. And curreently am sending all groups to same reverb bus. I'm panning tracks individually (so far) and each part has some voices on the left, some on the right... Some parts are low in pitch (and I have a very low voice so there's some shelving going on in the EQing) and others are higher.

Hard to keep the general racket down and not drown everything else at towards the end. Backing is standard cleanish guitar, bass drums. Rock/pop song but reasonably sparse arrangement.

I haven't tried this yet but I'm thinking it might help if, in the overlapping parts, I cut the numbers down a bit - cut the 8s to 6 or 4, the 6s to 4. I'll have a crack at that tonight, but the automation gets a bit tiresome.

Just wondering if anyone had any general tips...???

Thanks in advance. :thumbs up:





And..... WHAT WAS I THINKING????? :laughings:
 
perhaps stick to LCR panning to keep the arrangement clean? that would be my approach, and keep them away from the centre if there's a lead vocal, thin them out if you have to by cutting out 2-300 Hz, use group faders to create a more organised layout.
 
I do lots and lots of backups . But I usually end up with l/r lol - so far it seems to work ok. But if you have different parts I'd go l/r with each one. I just like backups "wrapped" around the lead vocal. Panning I'd have to experiment with.
 
I have something similar going with the song I just updated in the MP3 Clinic - 12 voices going by the end of the last chorus section. Scooping out the low-mids and adding some air got it less muddy overall. Hi-pass the reverb sends, too (I should have done that!)
Like you, I tend to overdo (my thought) the BU vocals at times.
Will be keeping my eyes on this thread!
 
On the automation, which seems like the only way (other than some compression) to get that to level out. Most DAWs will record fader movements, you could fader ride and record the movements and then do final adjustments. Or set the compressor for the large majority of the song and fader ride only on the high peaks. That is a compromise, but may have less impact on the sound than full compression for the peaks. (Not sure if that made and sense at all)
 
I'd advise going back and re-recording each line only once. I can't think of a many/any situations where you'd need (or even want) that many vocal tracks in a rock/pop mix that isnt doable better with fewer parts. There are a variety of tricks with delay, reverb and modulation effects (including ADT plugins) that can make the voices fill the space - too many vocal tracks (especially doubletracks) also tend to impair intelligibility as well.

My advice is to delete/mute any double tracks on the harmonies and secondary vocal lines and focus on conveying the musical idea rather than creating a big mess with 30+ vocal tracks just because you've recorded them. If it won't work with just one voice singing each line, then it probably just won't work - it's down to arrangement and structuring your harmonies well.

That, or hire a coir ;-)
 
Thanks everyone.... didn't actually get anything done last night, might have an attempt tonight to see how I go. I'll post it in the Clinic when I'm done, but I have to re-record the lead vocal yet.



Jake_JW said:
I'd advise going back and re-recording each line only once. I can't think of a many/any situations where you'd need (or even want) that many vocal tracks in a rock/pop mix that isnt doable better with fewer parts. There are a variety of tricks with delay, reverb and modulation effects (including ADT plugins) that can make the voices fill the space - too many vocal tracks (especially doubletracks) also tend to impair intelligibility as well.

My advice is to delete/mute any double tracks on the harmonies and secondary vocal lines and focus on conveying the musical idea rather than creating a big mess with 30+ vocal tracks just because you've recorded them. If it won't work with just one voice singing each line, then it probably just won't work - it's down to arrangement and structuring your harmonies well.

That, or hire a coir ;-)
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Jake, this isn't the songwriting forum. If I wanted advice on how to arrange the song, I would have asked for it. As you have no real idea of the context, you have no idea of what I'm trying to do and why there are so many tracks. They're not random takes, they're deliberate lines multi-tracked for a reason.

So thanks for your input, but run along now....
 
Another trick is to shelve more low end from the tracks that join in later, so that the early solo or duo parts sound full but as they join in the extra tracks don't muddy the vocal low end too much.

Alan.
 
Sounds basically like just dig in with a lot of automation to dial it in. Compressors- for example, likely won't 'duck or lay in and out where or how much' to get it done.
 
Hey man, You can't pretend mixing and arrangement are separate, they're very closely related after all. Pretending otherwise is a little naive.

Unless you've posted the track somewhere and I've missed it (in which case, apologies) I'm not sure how I have less context than anyone else here...I'm not aware that anyone has heard it on this forum. Maybe it's just that I wasn't so positive with my feedback and that didn't go down well - I meant no offence, I assure you.

Still, I wish you well with it all. I'll have to give it a listen if/when you finish it and put it online somewhere!
 
Sure thing :)
While I'm at it I'll tell them not to ask for tips on internet forums too!

In all seriousness though, feel free to ignore what I've said - it's only one man's opinion with limited information (as correctly pointed out I haven't heard the track), but if you ask for tips and you don't like some of them there's no point getting funny about it...:yawn:
 
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mjbphotos said:
Go back to the late 70s and tell Queen and 10c.c. not to record multiple tracks of vocals .......
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Hijack Alert Did you ever see the story about how 10CC recorded and mixed "I'm Not in Love"? Really interesting and all in analog.
 
You have all the parts bussed to groups. Now buss those groups to another groups and compress them relatively hard.

Panning everything wide will help also. That will make it so you don't have to turn those vocals up as much to get them heard.

Even with the compression, you will.still have to deal with the vocals being "thicker" The the overlap parts. Taking out some of the midrange will help. Listen to the vocals on Def Leppard Hysteria album. There are hundreds of vocal tracks, they are all very thin in order to keep from overwhelming the mix.
 
DM60 said:
Hijack Alert Did you ever see the story about how 10CC recorded and mixed "I'm Not in Love"? Really interesting and all in analog.
Click to expand...
Indeed! Everyone with their fingers on sliders during mixdown - great story!

Jake_JW said:
Sure thing :)
While I'm at it I'll tell them not to ask for tips on internet forums too!

In all seriousness though, feel free to ignore what I've said - it's only one man's opinion with limited information (as correctly pointed out I haven't heard the track), but if you ask for tips and you don't like some of them there's no point getting funny about it...:yawn:
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But we've got to have FUN! :D But the original question wasn't how to rewrite and then re-track a song, it was how to manage what he has already.
 
Hysteria. Didn't Mutt Lange also record the guitar chords one note at a time or something weird like that?
 
I do a lot of vocal layering in my songs. Here's the tricks I use:

Work on your delivery - The tighter the timing is between all the different takes, the cleaner everything will be
Wide panning - As parts get less important, pan them farther from the center. I also like to have similar parts panned opposite each other. (e.g. Two falsetto "oohs" at thirds from each other will tend to go 80 L/R on opposite sides)
Side-chain compressors to duck other mid-range instruments - i.e. put a compressor on the guitars that ducks them when the assorted vocal bus gets loud.
 
After a HPF, try making a bus for the vocal layers and a bus for the guitars. What I've done in the past is side-chain compress the guitars' bus to duck ever so slightly when the huge vocal bus kicks in. Should help them peak over that wall of sound.

EDIT: Son of a gun... Steve beat me to the punch! Steve :cursing:
 
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