master bus comp Q

Greg_L said:
That was hardly a pouncing.
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In this "PC, kinder, gentler" HR environment...yes, it was pouncing. ;)



mjbphotos said:
Why would you throw a compressor on it rather than just automating the volume a little?
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I went through a comp phase, mainly when I was doing almost everything in the analog domain, and that was the only way to control levels on tape tracks...but then the more I worked inside the DAW, the less I used compressors.
So now days...I only use them occasionally, and it's more for "color" than anything else, since I take care of all my level issues a mano.

No matter how lightly you try to use them...if you use them a lot, they will skew the EQ and harmonic balance of your tracks, not just tame the peak levels. So you can potentially end up with very altered sounds from what you started with. Of course, that can also be intentional, and then you just mold them to taste...but I find that I'm preferring the original "raw" sounds more than beating them to death with lots of processing to create some "new" sounding tracks....if that makes any sense.
Plus, like Greg was saying...you end up flattening things out too much and the tracks lose life...even if you boost them after compression.
 
I really like what hard compression does to bass and vocals. I like it for the sound. I only use compression for it's sonic effect, not for any fixing.
 
Greg_L said:
I really like what hard compression does to bass and vocals. I like it for the sound. I only use compression for it's sonic effect, not for any fixing.
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Me too. I use them for the sound of the compression, not for controlling the dynamics (even though it does).

The modern kick sound has a lot of upper mids and highs to balance the low end and make it stick out in the mix, without it being that much louder than everything else. Same with the bass. If you get the mids on those two things working correctly, the low end won't make the compressor pump so much.
 
Farview said:
..Same with the bass. If you get the mids on those two things working correctly, the low end won't make the compressor pump so much.
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With the stuff I'm writing and recording, the mids are cut on those instruments to make room for heavy guitars and vocals. The bass and kick are EQ'd like a "U", with that slump being in the 400-600hz area. When I solo the kick and bass, with that EQ in set, they groove nicely. Where the bass rings, maybe 110 or something, I'll cut there. Where the kick rings, maybe 90, i'll cut there too. Just a touch added up top, usually, to both in the 1.5-2.5 area for the click/pick. Regardless, the idea is that I'm cutting those mids about 8-12 db. The heavy guitars are opposite to how the bass and kick are EQ'd. Like an "A", but without any boosting. Just mids filling it up from 100hz to 6.5-7khz.

So...come time for a master EQ touch-up, that bass and kick on the bottom have lots of energy. Could I turn them down a touch? ok, sure. But in the mix, they sound really good where they're at. Come time for a master comp, it is triggering off of the kick and bass most of the time. I look where the biggest gain reduction is happening in the master comp, and it's on 1 of a big chorus hit stemming from a loud kick and bass note. In the mix, it sounds good on that 1 beat. But the comp is spending most of its time working off those two low end instruments.

That's why I'm asking if you guys ever use the sidechain (maybe up to 200hz?) so it doesn't jump on those as much.
 
andrushkiwt said:
With the stuff I'm writing and recording, the mids are cut on those instruments to make room for heavy guitars and vocals. The bass and kick are EQ'd like a "U", with that slump being in the 400-600hz area. When I solo the kick and bass, with that EQ in set, they groove nicely. Where the bass rings, maybe 110 or something, I'll cut there. Where the kick rings, maybe 90, i'll cut there too. Just a touch added up top, usually, to both in the 1.5-2.5 area for the click/pick. Regardless, the idea is that I'm cutting those mids about 8-12 db. The heavy guitars are opposite to how the bass and kick are EQ'd. Like an "A", but without any boosting. Just mids filling it up from 100hz to 6.5-7khz.

So...come time for a master EQ touch-up, that bass and kick on the bottom have lots of energy. Could I turn them down a touch? ok, sure. But in the mix, they sound really good where they're at. Come time for a master comp, it is triggering off of the kick and bass most of the time. I look where the biggest gain reduction is happening in the master comp, and it's on 1 of a big chorus hit stemming from a loud kick and bass note. In the mix, it sounds good on that 1 beat. But the comp is spending most of its time working off those two low end instruments.

That's why I'm asking if you guys ever use the sidechain (maybe up to 200hz?) so it doesn't jump on those as much.
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here:



This is the example I'm talking about. The kick and bass seem to pump a little, but that's ok I don't mind it much. I think I used one master comp as normal and then another w/ the sidechain around 200hz to not jump on the kick and bass so much. But can you hear the pump? it's a slow attack and med release that matches the song tempo.
 
Since you're only working with plugs...try something like the Waves API 2500 comp with the "Thrust" option.
There are probably other plug comps that do similar.
It lets you HP the input. that way the LF doesn't trigger the comp as much.

I have the API plug, but I also have a hardware Overstayer Stereo VCA comp that I use on the stereo bus of my console and it has a similar option called "Grab"...again, letting you send the full bandwidth signal to the comp, or one with the low end rolled off...plus it has post-comp HP and LP boost EQ option to allow you to re-adjust your EQ balance post-comp, all in one unit.
One of the best stereo bus comps IMO...it kinda mimics the API 2500 and the SSL Stereo Bus Comp...but it cost less than half of either of those units. :)

So it's basically like a side-chain setup...but these comps do it all internally.
 
miroslav said:
So it's basically like a side-chain setup...but these comps do it all internally.
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ok, so I'm not imagining this. This is a concept that other people have tried and do use for letting a comp or two skip over the low end? I don't think I would use it all the time, but just on songs with a driving kick and bass, up-tempo thrusting kind of thing.
 
Not going to even try to help (well, maybe I'll try a little). Compression is my downfall. But I'd like to watch this and learn.
So my little try: Can you automate the attack/release on the comp? i.e. setting it to sound right for the most of the song and then automating either release or ratio at the problem point to remove the pump...
 
BroKen_H said:
Can you automate the attack/release on the comp? i.e. setting it to sound right for the most of the song and then automating either release or ratio at the problem point to remove the pump...
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I don't even want to touch that stupid button. Seriously, every time I do it goes crazy and gets extraordinarily quiet. I turn auto off and set things on my own. I don't know, I'd rather learn what I'm doing properly than hit an auto-do-it-for-me button. I have "auto" and "adaptive". I turn those off.

01_Compressor.jpg
 
Sorry, not an auto button, but an automation track in your DAW.

i.e. can you change the levels of these knobs in an automation track?
Compressor.jpg
 
andrushkiwt said:
View attachment 96873
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Doesn't your comp plug have that option...it looks like it is there in the sidechain section - "Locut", and it's disabled.
Try playing with that. You should be able to enable it without any additional sidechain input....and I guess then the knob controls how much cut (?) or where/what frequency (?).....what does the plug manual tell you about that section?
 
miroslav said:
Doesn't your comp plug have that option...it looks like it is there in the sidechain section - "Locut", and it's disabled.
Try playing with that. You should be able to enable it without any additional sidechain input....and I guess then the knob controls how much cut (?) or where/what frequency (?).....what does the plug manual tell you about that section?
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That's just a google image of the comp i have, but not my settings. Yeah, I have the lowcut feature...i used it on the track I posted a few up. I'm just seeing what people think of using the feature and if the circumstance I'm suggesting is indeed a time they WOULD use it.
 
andrushkiwt said:
ok, so I'm not imagining this. This is a concept that other people have tried and do use for letting a comp or two skip over the low end? I don't think I would use it all the time, but just on songs with a driving kick and bass, up-tempo thrusting kind of thing.
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You're sort of talking about multiband compression, which is usually pretty ugly and only a band aid when a mix is kind of shitty. Used for effect, fine, but you're trying to fix something that should be fixed before you get this far.
 
andrushkiwt said:
yeah, sort of, i guess. But multiple bands aren't being compressed. In MBC, each one is getting compressed, but here everything a set point is compressed the same. But yeah, sort of. I see what you mean.
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I know the fucking difference!

Lol. For real though. I don't ever use the low filter on a compressor. I know it's there and what it does. I've just never had the need for it that I can remember. I always try to get it right in the mix before any of it goes anywhere near master bus compression.
 
andrushkiwt said:
ok, so I'm not imagining this. This is a concept that other people have tried and do use for letting a comp or two skip over the low end? I don't think I would use it all the time, but just on songs with a driving kick and bass, up-tempo thrusting kind of thing.
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I'll try this once again. Yes

Here's the example I posted earlier.
PSP MasterComp plug-in (VST, AudioUnit, RTAS) Stereo Mastering Compressor
Take a look at the side chain options. Not just a HPF- The point is the tools to dial it in to get the compressor to fit the response you want out of it.

Here's another one. Dirt cheap, works great and goes additional places the PSP won't.
DC8C Overview
I use these two and the UAD Precision Bus comp quite a lot for the things you're talking about, and as time goes on more and more comps like these rather than their 'classic emulations.

And to boot, it lessons the allure of resorting to multiband .
 
So, read a thread from GearSlutz today. A forum regular there also happens to be the mix engineer for Thirty Seconds to Mars' album This Is War. He was kind enough to share the mixing experience and answer all kinds of q's from the members. EQ, comp, settings, mics, drum techniques, etc.. very cool to read.

Anyways, I just came across this on like the 10th page of the thread.


Quote: Hey Ryan, do you use master bus comp in the sidechain mode to prevent it reacting to the lowend less?

Quote: I use the Medium Thrust setting which makes it a bit less sensitive to the low end.

aha! just reaffirming that the low end in this modern rock alternative stuff is a bit heavier. Of course, we can get into "these are pros" etc..., but all I was originally wondering is if that sidechain IS used for that purpose - ever. Is that a thing. Is that what it's for. That's all. You guys gave good info, thanks for all that!

What the hell is thrust setting. must be specific to that model bus comp he's using.
 
The thrust setting is on an API 2500 compressor. It makes the detector less sensitive to low and high end. (More sensitive to midrange)

DBX compressors have a button that essentially does the same thing. The name escapes me now.
 
The dbx 166a has a Contour button. I believe it adds a high pass filter ahead of the detector to keep the compressor from overreacting to the bass. I just sold two of them a few days ago.
 
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