I like loud mixes, am I insane? (How to make mixes that extra bit louder)

scottmusic22

New member
First things first, I don't like distorted music or bad quality of course (Californication, Death Magnetic, yuck!), but I do however tend to love a loud, punchy mix. This might make a little sense because I grew up listening to Green Day's American Idiot, and Blink 182 and other really, really loudly mixed music. Although the whole noisy wall of guitars thing has lost much of it's impact to me, I've gotten more into the pop music which takes loudness even further. My favorite mixes are usually really loud, and they sound great. For example, some of my favorite loud mixes are recent albums from artists like Marianas Trench (Ever After album), Ke$ha (Warrior album), and Angels and Airwaves (I-Empire album in particular). (I like pop music, sue me.)

Keep in mind that I'm mastering my own music, because I don't have a lot of money, but I do seem to have pretty proficient mixing/mastering skills. I'm a beginner, but I think I'm getting the hang of it pretty quick. I'm getting my mixes as loud as possible without hurting the quality much, and it's still just not at that same level as other pop and rock music is. I refuse to make it sound bad obviously (even though a lot of people think all loud mixes sound bad, but I think they may be stuck in the past...) and even if I did all I could they wouldn't be quite as loud as commercial mixes, so what could I do to get some more volume? I'm not even talking about limiting or compressing more because I don't think that would help, it's just the perceived volume, and even pushing the highs doesn't give my music the same volume.

My goal for my future mixes and masters are a better sound and louder sound, because both will affect how people perceive them. Loudness does matter a little and as part of the new generation, there's a certain in-your-face quality that myself and others like about it.

The only reason I'm asking is because my mixes are sounding really good, I would just like them a little bit louder personally, and would like some tips on how to make it happen.

Also my mixes used to be really quiet and not limited dynamically at all, and I didn't really like how they sounded even turned way up. They didn't sound right to me. It's a matter of taste, so don't tell me about all the disadvantages of loudness, because I understand them. Thanks!
 
What's your RMS?

Generally to get a mix sounding louder, make sure your really taming your peaks. Specifically your snare and kick, they tend to hit the master compressor a bit too hard which sort of gives your mix a pumping type of sound when you get to your limiter on the master buss (if your not compressing the signal correctly). Also make sure your controlling your bass in the mix, this is REALLY Important if you want to achieve a louder mix.
 
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by the questions you are asking, i'd say take it to a professional, and Pay them to make it loud for you.

if you don't know what you are doing, you'll cock it up bad.
 
What's your RMS?

Generally to get a mix sounding louder, make sure your really taming your peaks. Specifically your snare and kick, they tend to hit the master compressor a bit too hard which sort of gives your mix a pumping type of sound when you get to your limiter on the master buss (if your not compressing the signal correctly). Also make sure your controlling your bass in the mix, this is REALLY Important if you want to achieve a louder mix.

My RMS for almost all of the songs came out to -9.3. Not bad considering I didn't actually use my meters when I mastered them.
Interestingly enough the one I thought was the quietest came out to about -8.2, only because of the high level of the chorus.

I compressed my kick and snare a lot before and it seemed to work, because I got them sounding a little louder without pumping the whole mix.

60hz and below is rolled off, I don't think I need that rumble unless I'm going for huge sounding drums or really deep bass. However at about 100 Hz, it's very strong and I like it, maybe that could be taking up headroom but I wouldn't want to sacrifice something that's sounding pretty good!

I don't know why it took me so long to notice, but I'm lacking a bit of what sounds like 10k and above. It just sounds slightly less clear and open than most pop mixes. That could definitely be a big part of the loudness and the quality!

Thanks a lot for the tips by the way! This is all going to help my next mixes reach the next level :)
 
by the questions you are asking, i'd say take it to a professional, and Pay them to make it loud for you.

if you don't know what you are doing, you'll cock it up bad.

I'd rather try to become the professional than become the guy that pays the professional.
 
@ Scottmusic

I agree! definitely try to learn.

What you can try to do is also clean up a lot of the bass mids like at 500Hz. try scooping that range out!
 
I'd rather try to become the professional than become the guy that pays the professional.

if you are serious about that, asking questions on a home recording bbs probably is not going to get you there.

folks that do this for a living, didn't learn how to do it off the internet.

maybe find a local studio that will let you intern.
that's be a good start.


point is, it takes a real long time to get good at it.
and dont' get me wrong, i'm not saying 'dont go for it'

i'm only saying 'don't kid yourself'.


here's a great place to start on the 'self-learn' curve:

Mastering Audio Book
 
I've been thinking about getting that book actually, guess it's time for that!

People that do this for a living probably couldn't learn it through the internet when they started, and I'm guessing they also didn't have the capable tools that I have.

I'm not kidding myself and my recordings hold up to a lot of professional ones as it is. Like I said I'm just trying to take my skills to the next level, the level that the newest releases are at.
 
Finally.... a topic that hardly ever gets a proper discussion.. Loudness...:p

I do however tend to love a loud, punchy mix.

I like to make stuff loud. I really do. Sorta like Ricky Bobby likes to go fast.
The trick is to make it sound good. .. and loud

IMO/E the 3 things you need are:
Proper monitoring, Eq balance. Clean analog signal path.

Beyond that, there's no secrets because it's really left up to developing your own technique and skills. It be like trying to tell some one how to mix.

I'm serious.. but.. I always discuss with the client what they want.. and...make 2 versions and let the client decide on which path they want to take for an album project.
..and if it's a single and they do want balls out. I also give them a conservative version.. whether they want it or not.
 
First off RMS are what???? -9/-8...You do know that fully mastered songs are at that RMS level? and Im sorry if your plan is to sound "professional" that is not the way. mixes levels like that "DO NOT" stand up to professional ones just so you know. Anyone... and I do mean anyone can just make something loud. It dose not constitute good or a pro. The whole idea of a "loud mix" isn't even a focus for professionals. Might want to work on a balanced mix and gain staging might find your mixes alot better. Loud dose not equal good. As a pro mix engineer my mix levels are at -6 i leave loud to the mastering eng.
 
I like my volume control.
That said: as loud as possible while retaining the dynamics as intended is an common aim.
 
First off RMS are what???? -9/-8...You do know that fully mastered songs are at that RMS level? and Im sorry if your plan is to sound "professional" that is not the way. mixes levels like that "DO NOT" stand up to professional ones just so you know. Anyone... and I do mean anyone can just make something loud. It dose not constitute good or a pro. The whole idea of a "loud mix" isn't even a focus for professionals. Might want to work on a balanced mix and gain staging might find your mixes alot better. Loud dose not equal good. As a pro mix engineer my mix levels are at -6 i leave loud to the mastering eng.

Like I said, I am fully mastering these myself. They are as loud as a lot of things, but not the pop music that it is similar to. I want a loud and GREAT sounding mix of course! I'm not talking about more aggressive compression and limiting because I don't think that's the problem and that would just make it sound worse of course. I'm just asking for suggestions on things I could change, more likely even in the mix, to get some extra volume without brickwalling my songs to hell.

I read a joke in another forum about how someone had a sine wave blasting a single note at 0db for 3 minutes straight that was gonna blow everyone away! Of course loud does not equal good, but a great mix that's also loud will blow everyone away. It's not that loudness matters, it's that quietness in comparison to other songs can make a song seem dull.

By the way everyone, I realized that my problem probably has a lot to do with too much low end/not enough high end. Thanks for all of the tips everyone!
 
Another huge part of it is my limiter! After trying out the demo of Voxengo Elephant, I was easily able to give my mixes that extra push with far less artifacts and distortion than Logic's built in limiter gave me.
 
I haven't tried that extensively but it seemed that it caused no noticeable distortion when pushed pretty hard (this was just a test of course). Less distortion = sounding better and louder volume = louder volume, which are both things that I want so I'd say it'll help in both of those aspects, which all seems like an improvement to me!
 
Like I said, I am fully mastering these myself. They are as loud as a lot of things, but not the pop music that it is similar to. I want a loud and GREAT sounding mix of course! I'm not talking about more aggressive compression and limiting because I don't think that's the problem and that would just make it sound worse of course. I'm just asking for suggestions on things I could change, more likely even in the mix, to get some extra volume without brickwalling my songs to hell.

I read a joke in another forum about how someone had a sine wave blasting a single note at 0db for 3 minutes straight that was gonna blow everyone away! Of course loud does not equal good, but a great mix that's also loud will blow everyone away. It's not that loudness matters, it's that quietness in comparison to other songs can make a song seem dull.

By the way everyone, I realized that my problem probably has a lot to do with too much low end/not enough high end. Thanks for all of the tips everyone!

Somebody call the loud police?

Scott, I don't want to come down on you or turn this into a loud-bashing thread, so I'm going to try give you some constructive advice.

Firstly, a loud master is not a processing secret. It is achieved by a well captured recording, a good arrangement, a good tonal balance and well crafted mix. Learning how to cleverly and musically manage dynamic sources with compression and saturation can also help. Everything matters so the better your recordings, arrangements and mixes get, the louder you'll be able to make your recordings.

Now, when I say "a good arrangement" what do I mean? Well, the arrangement of any given song is not just the verse, chorus, bridge, etc, though they're certainly part of it. A good arrangement basically entails choosing the right sound placed in the right position. What is the right sound? I can't tell you that because how long is a piece of string? But what I can tell you is that choosing, recording or crafting your sounds wisely helps them gel together nicely and fights frequency build up and masking. This aids in clarity efficient use of headroom. It's the secret weapon to loudnes, imo. For instance, if the bass and guitars are fighting each other, they're going to reduce clarity, eat up headroom, and result in a wimpy sounding master. This goes for all the instruments.

Now my opinions on "loudness".

Making a master loud does not make it "punchy" or "better". It will ALWAYS make it worse because punch is a function of dynamics. No dynamics = no punch. A mix that is crap as it is will sound crappier loud. There are no exceptions. Punchiness, clarity and everything else that makes a good mix is achieved during recording and mixing. In fact, I would say that most of the mojo is achieved during recording. Shit in, shit out. That's the mantra.

And one last thing. The masters that sound great and are also loud were not achieved by one guy doing recording, mixing and mastering. They are almost always a result of multiple sets of ears and that is why sending a mix to a professional ME is the most professional choice. The day you decide to stop screwing up your own mixes by smashing the living hell out of them to compete with some silly loudness war is the day that you have made the first step toward being a real professional.

Cheers :)
 
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