How loud is too loud

F

FedePatane

New member
Hello dear gurus of mastering,

I know my question is a recurrent question and there are million (literaly) threads about loudness wars and such. I haven't found a straight forward answer, so i'll just rewrite it this way:

Are there any industry standards values that i should be looking for? and Here is what to measure and what i am using now.

Considering the mixed and mastered track I target my volumes this way:

RMS values: from -10 to -8 db
average peak values: -6 to -4 db
Max Peak : -0,5 db

Is there another value/indicator i should be looking for? for example the K-Metering by Bob Katz ?

Thanks!!!!

Federico
 
Sadly, there are no standards for music (as there are for film).

If there were standards, I would submit they would be somewhere around -15 to -14dB(FS)RMS for most popular music.

30 years into this and there are two things I can tell you -- I've heard plenty of recordings with a 20dB crest (which is pretty typical and normal for a finished mix) that sounded considerably "better" with a 15dB crest.

I have never heard a recording with a 15dB crest that sounded better with a 10dB crest.

Use your meters to calibrate your gear and then turn them off (IMO/E, YMMV, etc.).
 
I thought the vinyl records had perfect volume, and i think i read they were like -19 average. the most i'd go is a few higher for a more modern sound, but beyond that and things sound like crap to me. my experience and gear are pretty limited, but i think i have a pretty good ear and that's what i've noticed.

half the stuff in the mix clinic i turn off immediately just due to the high volume.
 
This is why digital is accused of "that cold, digital sound" most of the time.

Vinyl - and tape - let's not forget tape - had physical limitations. You couldn't over-squash vinyl without quickly learning about the physical motion of the needle. You couldn't have excessive sibilance. You couldn't have out-of-control low end or bizarre phase anomalies. You couldn't record these ridiculous levels to tape without wrecking it.

And the voltage specs of all that gear all those years ago is the same voltage spec today.

But the physical limitations have been removed... I remember the celebratory euphoria when 24-bit digital (even 16-bit to a great extent) became the norm -- We finally had *usable* SNR that exceeded the potential of human hearing and any of the gear anyone would ever use. We had access to a clean dynamic range that was absolutely obscene by any possible measure -- And then we just squashed the hell out of everything because we didn't have to worry about the needle bouncing out of the groove. And people *still to this day* track "as hot as you can without clipping" which was a horrible idea in the first place (even back in 16-bit).

There are certainly side-effects that are very cool --- There are mics out there that have insanely low self-noise that didn't exist 20 years ago (few recordings take advantage of it, but there you go). The modern gear I have here absolutely kills the stuff I had access to back in the day -- Quiet? Hell yeah. Ridiculous amounts of *usable* headroom above nominal voltage? You betcha. The ability to set a particular voltage point to a particular digital value? Couldn't even comprehend such a thing back when I started.

The problem is that although that gear allows for "more louder" with "less damage" -- what it really wants to do is take advantage of the purity. People are listening with headphones more and more - which allows them to experience a much wider dynamic range than they would in a car or a noisy room - and *still* we're just crushing everything to death because we think it makes it sound better...? Or to keep up with some other really loud album because people will think we aren't "pro" sounding...?

I know I say it enough already, but in case anyone else didn't know -- The loudness war is - and always has been - a pissing contest between bands and labels. The listening public never asked for this. And I'd submit that they'd be pretty pissed if they knew what they were missing. MFiT / iTunes Plus, high-res FLAC, etc. -- The demand to go to "normal" volume (a.k.a. the volume the MIX wants to be at) is there. I only hope it keeps growing... [/RANT]
 
Yeah massive, i remember reading about the physical limitations, etc, of printing on vinyl and understand that's why they records were lower in volume to a degree, but it also feels natural there, so maybe it was serendipity. i started out recording on tape and then went to digital so i have a foot in each door, though i'm pretty inexperienced still and don't understand all the technicalities. i like digital now that i know how to control the signal. before i learned that i hated it and found it cold.

I think what's happening is all the budget gear has people trying their hand at recording before they really know what they're doing because the upfront investment is so little. then on top of that many of those people hear that loud gets you noticed, so they just max out a limiter. what that gets, in my world at least, is your music immediately turned off, because i want to protect my ears not blow out ear drums. i want to hear a timbres and tones over a brittle/maxed out limiter sound. if i want it loud i have a volume knob.
i kinda just assume that if someone makes a very loud mix they don't have very good ears, because if they have good ears they should hear how the sound deteriorates as you limit more. now if they get it loud without much limiting or compression that's better, but still, as a listener i don't want loud, i want pleasing/interesting, etc. we need a "pleasing war" or a "tone war" or "timbre war" instead of this loud war.
 
FedePatane said:
Considering the mixed and mastered track I target my volumes this way:

RMS values: from -10 to -8 db
Click to expand...
Personally, I think that's damn loud. Nothing wrong with it I guess, if your mixes can handle it. But I don't think I've ever heard a a home recording that doesn't fall apart once you start getting louder than about -11. -8 is ridiculously loud in my opinion, whether your mix can handle it or not.

If you stay around -12, I think you'll still be loud enough that your song can sit in a playlist without standing out as being really low compared to commercial mixes.
 
Wow, thank you all for your answers, it seems like i have been overcompressing a lot and need to turn down the volumne.

my mixes are around -18~-19 db RMS before mastering. so perhaps i should start with even lower volume.

Still, in a playlist with other comercial music i don't feel it stands out very much (at least volume-wise). That is why i targeted those values.

Here are two examples of what i have been doing.

https://soundcloud.com/federico-patan-1/los-missed-v24

and this one which needs a bit of tweeking (back to mixing) because the bass is too loud and overpowering the mix a bit.

https://soundcloud.com/federico-patan-1/los-a-one-note-song-of-rage-remixedv10

any comment/opinion would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again!

Federico
 
FedePatane said:
Wow, thank you all for your answers, it seems like i have been overcompressing a lot and need to turn down the volumne.

my mixes are around -18~-19 db RMS before mastering. so perhaps i should start with even lower volume.

Still, in a playlist with other comercial music i don't feel it stands out very much (at least volume-wise). That is why i targeted those values.

Here are two examples of what i have been doing.

https://soundcloud.com/federico-patan-1/los-missed-v24

and this one which needs a bit of tweeking (back to mixing) because the bass is too loud and overpowering the mix a bit.

https://soundcloud.com/federico-patan-1/los-a-one-note-song-of-rage-remixedv10

any comment/opinion would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again!

Federico
Click to expand...

Federico, I'd turn down those guitars and then make the appropriate adjustments to the other instruments. They're getting a bit brittle when that loud in the mix (or a limiter did that to them maybe).

To me that's a pretty loud mix. I had to turn my headphones down and wound up just turning it off because the loudness bothered me, though I think some of that was the piercing guitars.

The second mix has too much bass, as you noted. It's fairly loud overall, too. That bass can probably come down 5db or more and still be heard fine.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
What reference level are you using, sine or square wave?
Click to expand...

Oh yeah. That again. :D

His numbers are THAT outrageous, so I figured he's using the "standard" scale, I don't which of the two that is. If he said his mixes were -4 or -3, then I'd begin to wonder.
 
ok, thanks for the answers, i have a lot to think about and read.

that being said. I do not know about sine or square wave measuring (something more to read about) , those are the values i get from Reaper meter and then rechecked with Voxengo SPAN metering plugin.

Some times, not always, i do a cross check with ToscAnalizer.

So by now I understand that my results are way too loud. In the future will try and make them in the range of -15 to -12 tops.

The second question to those who heard my tracks is, regardless of the high volume : is it overcompressed? I know i compressed it a lot and in various levels. but i don't think I added distorsion to it.

as for the limiter I am using a plugin called Limeted-z ( Limited-Z - LVC-Audio ) which has a very cool feature to show my waveform and the "Cutting" of the limiter so i know graphically how much the limiter is reducing/cutting of my final waveform. I twicked it a bit so that I could boost the gain all I could with very little real action of the limiter.

show i use some other indicators? like the K-12 ?
 
FedePatane said:
I do not know about sine or square wave measuring (something more to read about) , those are the values i get from Reaper meter
Click to expand...

Almost nobody knows the difference, until it came up in a thread last week. If you're using REAPER meters, you're using the same meters 95% of us use. I still don't know if that's sine or square wave, but it doesn't matter. You're using what I would consider "standard" metering. There's nothing wrong with the way you're metering and chances are, you're only going a little too loud. Like I said, if you were shooting for -3 or -5 RMS, that would be something to worry about. But going for somewhere in the -12 RMS range is reasonable.
 
RAMI said:
Almost nobody knows the difference, until it came up in a thread last week. If you're using REAPER meters, you're using the same meters 95% of us use.
Click to expand...

That would be "0dB peak square wave = 0dBRMS". The TT DR Meter uses sine wave. The question is, were all the numbers being thrown around in this thread, not just the OP's, using the same standard?
 
bouldersoundguy said:
That would be "0dB peak square wave = 0dBRMS". The TT DR Meter uses sine wave. The question is, were all the numbers being thrown around in this thread, not just the OP's, using the same standard?
Click to expand...
Honesty, and I don't know this for sure, I think everyone's using the "0dB peak square wave = 0dBRMS". Just guessing, though.
 
My thoughts are that DR14 would have excellent dynamics. DR10 I think is squashed, but has a lot of life still. I use DR10 as a standard for my own music. Anything less than DR8 is going to increasingly sound like a piece of wood being hit by a piece of cardboard, no matter how great the mix was.
 
Vinyl "perfect"?

The best, pre digital reproduction getting into a home was a live FM broadcast received on top end gear such as Revox tuner. A dynamic range of 70dB was just about possible (at 1%thd for peak deviation).

That is 5-10dB better than vinyl-from-tape and WAY better thd. The response might only go up to 15kHz (ok by me for most of MY life!) but at least the response was not level dependent!

And yet! Some very well setup people could hear microphone system hiss between movements (Proms say at RAH). We now have microphones/pres that are a good 10dB quieter and digital can now easily make use of the improvement..And thd? Wassat?

Tape and vinyl was never close to good enough for classical music nor later prog rock.

Dave.
 
Nola said:
I just said perfect volume not dynamics or headroom like you're talking about.
When I play an old record it doesn't destroy my ears and sounds pleasing.
Click to expand...

Maybe you are playing the digital stuff too loudly? Seriously, vinyl gives you an unconscious clue about level setting due to surface noise when you lower the stylus. There is no such "starter reference" for a good digital system.

Do you own an SPL meter?

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
Seriously, vinyl gives you an unconscious clue about level setting due to surface noise when you lower the stylus. There is no such "starter reference" for a good digital system.
Click to expand...

I'd never thought of this before, but it makes perfect sense!
 
gecko zzed said:
I'd never thought of this before, but it makes perfect sense!
Click to expand...

Ha! The VERY first thing I ever heard on CD was Bat out of Hell. Quad 405 driving Castle Acoustics (not mine, mtp!). Meatloaf was at a healthy volume at the intro, a little larger than life but from this silky silent background then...BAM!!!

I was hooked I now needed to replace my whole vinyl inventory with this magical digital sound. Did not actually get a CD play for about a year. Still got it, Philips CD460 and it still plays store boughts but is a bit fussy about burns. The display is buggered and the tray a bit wanton in its operation.

Dave.
 
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