How loud is too loud

Depends on how you Mix, Rely on your ears if it sound like a turd it will always be a turd
Number crunching wont teach the skills you will need to further develop the art of engineering a good mix

Most are looking at EBU R128 or European Broadcasting Union Recommendation R128 of August 2011 is a set of rules regarding loudness normalisation and permitted maximum level of audio signals during broadcast
if all channels technically comply with current regulations (usually using maximum allowed peak limit of -10dB).Additionally, because audio in movies or live programming usually has relatively wide dynamic range - some parts are quieter, some parts are louder, with considerable lengths of silence or just background music between them, many advertisers and jingle creators found a simple way to exploit the rules by compressing audio in promotional material into almost constantly peaking wall of sound which despite being within allowed maximum decibel peak levels, simply sound much louder when the regular programming switches into commercial break.

To countermeasure this across all European channels EBU has now issued new recommendation (R128), defined new international standard for measuring audio programme loudness (ITU-R BS.1770-2), introduced new measuring units - LU (Loudness Unit) and LUFS (Loudness Unit, referenced to Full Scale) plus new measures of Programme Loudness, Loudness Range and Maximum True Peak Level that must be used to characterise an audio signal in broadcast.


Cheers
 
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Depends on how you Mix, Rely on your ears if it sound like a turd it will always be a turd
Number crunching wont teach the skills you will need to further develop the art of engineering a good mix

Most are looking at EBU R128 or European Broadcasting Union Recommendation R128 of August 2011 is a set of rules regarding loudness normalisation and permitted maximum level of audio signals during broadcast
if all channels technically comply with current regulations (usually using maximum allowed peak limit of -10dB).Additionally, because audio in movies or live programming usually has relatively wide dynamic range - some parts are quieter, some parts are louder, with considerable lengths of silence or just background music between them, many advertisers and jingle creators found a simple way to exploit the rules by compressing audio in promotional material into almost constantly peaking wall of sound which despite being within allowed maximum decibel peak levels, simply sound much louder when the regular programming switches into commercial break.

To countermeasure this across all European channels EBU has now issued new recommendation (R128), defined new international standard for measuring audio programme loudness (ITU-R BS.1770-2), introduced new measuring units - LU (Loudness Unit) and LUFS (Loudness Unit, referenced to Full Scale) plus new measures of Programme Loudness, Loudness Range and Maximum True Peak Level that must be used to characterise an audio signal in broadcast.


Cheers

The US has legislation, as well, on the loudness of commercials. Good, got real tired of hearing "BUY THIS USED CAR NOW!" in between commercial breaks, then turning the volume back up for the program.
 
The US has legislation, as well, on the loudness of commercials. Good, got real tired of hearing "BUY THIS USED CAR NOW!" in between commercial breaks, then turning the volume back up for the program.

This is a continual complaint to the BBC but not ads of course! No, "incidental" arty-farty music. Every documentary and wildlife programme it seems MUST be punctuated with some form of "mood" music.
FFS there was a WF program demonstrating the silent flight of an owl that had background MUSIC in the clip!

I am sure the producers, with 20-20 ears and seated in a £200,000 treated continuity sweet, in silence and listening on their PMCs can follow the dialogue AND enjoy the music but when it comes from the piddling speakers in a 32" FST it is crap.

I am registered deaf and have two digital aids but even with both if I get the V/O at an intelligible level the music hurts!

There was a recent very welcome exception. James May (Top Gear fame) did a 3 progg series called The Assembler. As a repair tech' much of it was bllx but AT LEAST they had little or no background music.

Dave.
 
Limiters will distort badly when pushed too hard. LUFS 12, DR10, rms 14 ... all good things to shoot for. But I've come across tracks that were perceptually louder and more open than others that were technically louder by the numbers ... it's a balancing act between rms levels, the crest factor, resonance, and the overall EQ curve of the track among other things. Settings that make one track too loud could be just right for another track.
 
It's too loud when your mix sounds like shit because of your limiter. Fix the eq balance to gain perceived loudness.

Keep in mind: the more bass you try to squash in the final balance, the less perceived loudness you'll have. Conversely, the more highs you have, the more the limiter will cut those transients off.

P.S. don't forget to high pass and low pass if loudness is what you're after.
 
Coming back to this thread after a couple of week, I have a couple of thoughts.

First off, vinyl doesn't really have a specific level that can be expressed in dB. It's a physical representation of you sound with the effective loudness determined by how much the mastering engineer (i.e. the guy cutting the disk) lets the cutter wave about. Obviously there are limits to how much "waving" you can put down without interfering with the next groove (and how much the stylus can move about without starting to bounce). However, you can't really express this as dB until you convert it back into an electrical signal.

Second, I realise this thread isn't really about loudness, it's about dynamic range. Every digital recording should end up with the peaks being at or just below the 0dB(FS) point. That's what every playback system (your CD player or MP3 player) is set up for and anything lower will sound quiet compared to commercial recordings. Where the debate comes in is over how much dynamic range you allow. Too much and the quiet bits will get lost (because, unfortunately, nobody sits and listens anymore...it's all car stereos and/or earbuds while you sit on the train). To little though and you lose all sense of "air" and "space" in your recordings. (I hate those rubbish audiophile terms but they're the best I could come up with.

I must admit that, once I have my peaks at 0, I usually just go by ear to decide on what dynamic range I like. However, where it gets different is where your product is destined for a broadcaster. In those cases there are pretty specific specs to aim for. I use Adobe Audition and it has a "loudness radar" meter with presets for all the common standards...ATSC, EBU, CD, Cinema etc. It's very useful even just as a check. I don't know which other DAWs have a similar facility but I suspect most--or at least those used in any kind of professional setting--will have similar. To the OP, it might be worth checking to see if you DAW has this...using the CD preset would probably let you sort out "correct" levels and dynamic range.
 
To be really specific, the crest factor (the difference between peak and rms levels) is what gives the perception of loudness. Dynamic range happens on a macro scale over many seconds or even minutes. The crest factor is "micro" dynamics at any given moment.

So a really quiet interlude followed by a progressively loud pre-chorus into a smashing chorus would show a lot of dynamic range. But if you over-squash that with a limiter, to where the crest factor is like 3db throughout all parts, it would destroy that dynamic range of quiet, louder, loudest. As a side effect, all of the sound would also be crunched, smeared and less punchy.

Side note: the loudness wars prove Marshall McLuhan was right. As we overuse and overextend any medium, it will produce the exact opposite effect of what was intended. Limiters can add punch and pleasemy loudness to a track, but if you overdo it, that same limiter will take away punch, pleasentness and clarity.
 
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