Home Mastering - What Do You Use?

[miroslav]

"If you can't tell whether your mix sounds good or not or cant tell what's right or wrong about it, what are you even doing stepping behind a DAW?"

It just seems so common sense to me that if one wants to make music, that a prerequisite should be having the ear for it, that it does not work in reverse. See, my problem is - as Miro knows well, because we got into this pretty heavily a couple of months ago - I just don't *get* at all how or why people find "do what the music tells you" to be such a mysterious or "advanced" concept; I consider it to be a fundamental prerequisite to what we do.

........

But apparently that sense is not so common, because I seem to be a member of the teeny-tiniest of minorities there. Again, to go back to what I was saying earlier, I can't think of another single technical profession or artistic discipline where this is not fairly common sense; people all the time say they do or don't have a photographer's eye or a writer's flair, or understand that technical trades usually require a natural aptitude. Shit, it's even true in sports; people usually know whether they can ever be captain of their football team or not. Yet when it comes to music production it's not only not common sense, but it's actually insulting to others to treat it that way?

G.

I always understood what you meant Glen….the problem (and crux of our old debate) is that newbies/amateurs/beginners would have to be born with that understanding according to your perspective.
Were YOU born with it or did you *learn* how to do what a mix is telling you?
Think about that…

We’re not talking about leadership qualities (as a football captain might be born with)…we are talking about the process, the skill….how to hold and throw the ball…and that IS something that needs to be learned.
Telling a kid to throw the ball like Joe Namath (you can substitute your favorite quarterback) won’t do much for that kid if he’s never thrown a football, even if he’s watched others do it, and even if he’s thrown other types of balls.

Most of the newbies on these forums have never thrown the “football”.
They need more than: “throw it like the play dictates”…..
And even if they see that they have to throw long…they still may not understand how to properly read the play…what options they have…etc…etc…etc.
Those are all learned processes. Someone initially has to tell them, guide them…though like with anything, they could do a lot of trial and error and learn it on their own…but most get bogged down by lots of “error”…which is why they end up here.

Assuming you are not a pilot…if you watched someone execute a loop and roll…and you obviously can see what they are doing…would you be able to pull it off without any detailed instruction…”just do what the plane is telling you”…?

“Do what the mix is telling you” is very clear to guys that have been doing recording for awhile…but often not to newbies, and even if they understand the words “do what a mix is telling you” and implication…they still are not always sure which step(s) in the process they need to follow the first time out.
Can you recall your first attempts at recording?
Did you know how to mix right from the first moment?
I sure didn't...and even though my ears hear a little less in the upper end than they did at the beginning of my recording adventure...I actually hear things BETTER now than when I was younger.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I always understood what you meant Glen….the problem (and crux of our old debate) is that newbies/amateurs/beginners would have to be born with that understanding according to your perspective.

I'm not going so far as to say one has to be born with it, any more than one has to be born with the aptitude for playing a guitar or a piano - though it does help. No, I don't believe I was born with the ability to mix, necessarily.

But what I am saying is that whether one plays the guitar, the piano, or the mixing board, that producing a recording of it to the standards that two out of three home recorders either desire or expect (i.e. not sounding like an amateur home recording) requires both a critical and musical understanding of - and ear for - the music before they should consider hitting the Big Red Button. Why? because otherwise they're just spinning their wheels. (I'm not talking about hobbyists recording their kid's band or recital, nor about recording as part of the composition/development process; I'm talking here solely about those making actual demos or CDs, or those hanging out an Internet shingle offering engineering services to others.)

Once again I'm a bit frustrated because what I considered to be the key statement of my last post was one that was edited out of your quote:

If the tracks or music you're listening to are not telling you what they want, then there's nothing for you to do.

I mean, how is one even supposed to do anything if they don't know what needs doing? It's like swinging blindly at a pinata without even knowing if you're in the right room.

That doesn't mean you have to be born with an innate ability for analytical listening in your genes like some savant Mozart of the recording studio, I'm not saying that. This stuff *can* be learned. But learn to listen first - *and* listen to a LOT of different stuff first. Learn how to listen and what to listen to when you do listen. Then, and only then, is one going to be anything other than impotent behind the glass.

Having to ask someone else if something sounds "good" or "right" is like somebody deciding to re-plumb their own bathroom and then having to ask someone else if the pipes leak or not. If one can't tell if the pipes are leaking or if the toilet properly flushes, then maybe that person is not the wisest choice to be doing the plumbing, to say the least. That doesn't mean they have to be born to be a plumber, it just means that they need to have or acquire some basic fundamental abilities before they should even try tackling it.

G.

 

[miroslav]

....requires both a critical and musical understanding of - and ear for - the music before they should consider hitting the Big Red Button.

No argument...but again, how do you think people should develop that critical understanding and ear for audio recording?
You seem to suggest that they just....should have it.

My contention is that they often need training, and lots of it...before they can really make sense of "do what the music is telling you".
As I pointed out in my last post, how I hear and listen to music now AFA audio recording, is NOT how I did 30 years ago, even though I had many years of music lessons and college music courses and was playing music for quite a few years before I got into recording.
Now I hear things more critically and more analytically and I know how to apply that hearing to audio recording, and not just to listening for entertainment...and that's come through lots of recording trial and error and learning specific techniques and do’s-n-don’ts via reading/instruction/discussion...etc.

Following your perspective...I should have just known how to do all of that right from the start.

 

[noisewreck]

While there are no 100% absolutes, IME I have fond that most of the time the problem is NOT that the average newb doesn't know *how* to fix something, it's that they don't know what needs fixing.

Well, and I feel that the two aren't entirely separate from one another, and a complete newb while might feel that their mix sux, they would have a difficult time figuring out what makes their mix suck.

Here's a car analogy:
You drive down the road and feel that your car is pulling to the right. What is causing it? Maybe it's an alignment issue, maybe your tire is not inflated correctly, maybe your have an issue with your break caliper. How is a newb to know?

Also, when you're working on a mix, and when you don't have much of an experience, your ears get used to the sound eventually, and lose objectivity. Which only returns when you listen to some pro mix, and you go "whoa, my mix sux!"

I understand your complaint and share the frustration where people somehow feel like there should be a big red "mixdown" button in their DAW, that should take your sucky tracks and transform into the next Chemical Brothers hit Over in the Kurzweil forums I see the same attitude. I mean people go out, spend the money on the most programmable synth ever, and then complain that it doesn't have the presets that would work for them. I mean, you got the most flexible instrument in the world which would allow you to pretty much make any sound you want, and you fuckin want presets? WTF? Put the time and effort to learn your instrument you lazy fuck!

I understand that.

But I also understand that this whole mess is complicated and difficult and I have a hard time believing that there is no way to convey and teach basic mixing, tracking, listening and yes mastering skills, techniques, etc. Just like a musician does excercises, plays scales, arpeggios, etc to develop technical agility at their instrument, so there have to be a way to convey and teach how to use the tools at hand to achieve the desired results.

Having said that, I do also believe that if the "student" doesn't have the talent, it will be lost on them, just the same as the musician, who sits down for hours and practices all those scales and whatnot will not be able to make compelling music if they don't have the talent, no matter how technically proficient they are.

But at the same time, you're not going to tell someone who is just barely learning how to play an instrument to "do what the music tells you to do". While it may be correct, they simply will not have the technical skills to pull off what the music is telling them to do. I hope I am able to convey what I mean.

 

[kcearl]

did i leave my car keys in here?

 

[Bristol Posse]

Interesting thread

My own experience is that once I began trying to mix my own music it forced me to far more critically listen to other music to see what was being done and how I could use similar techniques myself.

Just listening to music with no hands on experience is not the same. I can read about what a compressor does but until I'd used one to hear the before and after sound I'd never be able to pick out where it was used in a record. There's lots of academic discussion I could read about "warmth" and "coloration" vs. clean sound but until I'd passed the same signal through both clean and "color" gear I had no idea what it sounded like and why you might pick one over the other. And one could go on and on: adding air; using saturation; reducing mud; boxy sounds; sweeping the frequencies and on and on.

While it may be obvious once you are used to all this stuff and what effects they have on your sound, I very much doubt anyone could say as a total newbie to the mysteries of recording and mixing that: this song (insert favorite song here) is a great mix because of the subltle use of a warm compressor on the vocals and the way that saturation was used to soften the transients on the drums combined with the mix of "warm" pres and clean pres on various elements and some unusual micing techniques on the guitars
As a newbie recording/mixing guy you just know it sounds great and you want your stuff to sound that good

So doing what the music/mix is telling assumes an awful lot of knowledge and experience. Without that you just know you want your song to sound better, more like that great song mentioned above.

Now, what gets extremely frustrating and rather puzzling IMO is the total lack of willingness to try anything for oneself that seems to be running wild on this type of forum, along with not liking the answers that people who have tried tend to give you.

"how do I EQ a vocal" I don't know, why not try it a bunch of different ways and see what you like.
"Should I use a compressor" why not try and see, I have no idea how it will sound on your material
"Should I get this new pre" Sure if you like, What don't you like about your current one, what will this new one give you
"Is Mic x better than mic z" no idea for your material, rent one and find out
"What level should I record at" RTFM and calibrate your gear then you can try and see what happens when you push into headroom vs line level
and on and on........

With the internets availability to others doing similar things many seem to have lost the wilingness or balls to try anything for themselves. I find that I very rarely need to post a question on a forum because usually if I just try and see I can answer virtually all of my own questions even though I'm still very much a noob myself, and maybe I'm a too cocky SOB who doesn't feel a need for validation before I try anything. I've said on a couple of other threads that I find it somewhat interesting how other do things but in the end, unless they have the same gear, material, instruments, voice, style, combination of plugs and hardware, room, monitors, desired outcome, etc etc as me, more or less irrelevant. (Perhaps that is why my stuff is rubbish )

YMMV as they say

 

[Moseph]

Another reason I ask about open source/cheap is I think it's slightly strange that there is a powerful open source DAW (Reaper) that (for my uses and needs) can compete with the best of the consumer lot (like Sonar) for a lot less money.......yet there is no corresponding open source quality for an app that makes redbook/ddp spec cd's with editing, meta tags, etc? Mildly surprising.....

Wait, Reaper is open source? Where did you see that?

I think you might be confusing "free of charge" with "open source." They're not the same thing (though you often see them go hand-in-hand).

"Open source" means that anyone has access to the source code and can modify it to meet their needs. "Free of charge" (which the current version of Reaper isn't, by the way) simply means the program can be obtained without spending any money.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Interesting thJust listening to music with no hands on experience is not the same. I can read about what a compressor does but until I'd used one to hear the before and after sound I'd never be able to pick out where it was used in a record. There's lots of academic discussion I could read about "warmth" and "coloration" vs. clean sound but until I'd passed the same signal through both clean and "color" gear I had no idea what it sounded like and why you might pick one over the other. And one could go on and on: adding air; using saturation; reducing mud; boxy sounds; sweeping the frequencies and on and on.

I agree. I'm not saying that one should before recording know on a technical level the *why* of what's "wrong" with a mix or *how* to fix it, I'm just saying that they should be able to ID *what* is wrong sonically. They may not know that a vocal needs such-and-such a compressor set to so-and-so, or that they need to cut a resonant at frequency X, or even that a compressor or EQ is the solution. That's fine. You're right, there is no better way to learn that stuff than by hands-on experience. But they should be able to hear that the vocals ain't right - or at least ain't what they want or what the mix needs.

To use Miro's analogy, people don't just jump into an airplane, try to fly it, and then get on the radio and call someone and ask them whether the sky is supposed to be up or down or whether they are supposed to land in a cornfield or on a lake. They go through plenty of ground school first, and then flying with an instructor, before they are even allowed to fly solo (unless you're watching an Airplane '7x movie )

And one assumes that even before they enter ground school, that they at least know something is wrong if the sky is below them and the ground is above them, and at least know that unless it's an emergency that they should be landing on a runway and not in a cornfield. They may not know the actual landing procedure or how to right the plane yet, but they at least know when something is wrong.

In the plumbing example I used, they may not know the proper way to fix a leaky J-bend or a pipe that rattles when they turn off the faucet, but they should at least recognize that leak and that rattle as being wrong and not have to ask anyone else if it's supposed to work like that or not.

In music production, one should not have to be told that a guitar is masking a vocal or that the vocals are too sibilant. They may not know the techniques for fixing such things, and that's OK, that's why forums like this exist. But if they can't hear the actual existence of those problems, then there is no way they will ever keep their plane from crashing or their basement from flooding, no matter how much anyone tries to help them.

G.

 

[Bristol Posse]

To use Miro's analogy, people don't just jump into an airplane, try to fly it, and then get on the radio and call someone and ask them whether the sky is supposed to be up or down or whether they are supposed to land in a cornfield or on a lake. They go through plenty of ground school first, and then flying with an instructor, before they are even allowed to fly solo (unless you're watching an Airplane '7x movie )

And one assumes that even before they enter ground school, that they at least know something is wrong if the sky is below them and the ground is above them, and at least know that unless it's an emergency that they should be landing on a runway and not in a cornfield. They may not know the actual landing procedure or how to right the plane yet, but they at least know when something is wrong.

And that's the difference. The analogy isn't quite right because this kind of endeavour is expensive and extremely hazardous. But even this assumes the knowledge/experience that being upside down at 10,000 feet and turning off the engine is a life threateningly bad idea. If it were possible to find an adult with a completely wiped mind and give him a plane he would have none of the experiential bias already ingrained and would probably do some really stupid things that would wind up with him slamming into the pavement at 200 miles per hour.
PLanes, Plumbing, cars etc etc etc all these analogies take a large amount of experiential knowledge for granted that are not really obvious because is so much a part of normal life

With music production it can be done for free with no risk to life and limb (maybe just hurt feelings if people don't like your stuff). Anyone can get started in music production, theoretically even a person who was deaf and mute. Pretty much all daws are free to try, hundreds of plugs are legally free and with an Xbox mic you can start recording yourself.
"I like music, I wrote a couple of songs over this beat I got online, sure I can record em and mix em, no problem that's what all the marketing says and it costs me nothing. I have good taste, I know what I like so it should be really easy right....."
Someone with this attitude and lack of training would never try and fly a plane if this were akin to their knowledge of flight but making music, sure why not

I think there's probably a sort of music darwinism that kicks in eventually but it's still dangerous to assume even a base understanding of what is masking what or even what a mix *Should* sound like is not a given.

No offense to anyone on this thread. I'm using a fictional worst possible case scenario recordist/mixer/mastering guy to demonstrate a point

And wow have we gone about a million miles off the original point

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I'd submit that home recording is far from free. A couple years of time spent and hundreds, if not usually a couple thousand at least, of dollars later and one could easily be no closer to their goal than the day they started. We see that very thing all the time on this board. And more often than not it's because the user just doesn't know what to listen for.

The safety factor does not break the analogies, IMHO. It's still a matter of knowing what is needed before one can learn the whys and hows of supplying what's needed. You need to know that the ground should not be racing towards you when you're flying the plane long before you can ever actually level the plane out. The fact that lives are at stake there makes that analogy more important, sure, but it doesn't make it any more or less analogous. To someone who can't tell with their ears if a mix is about to crash and burn, that mix is going to crash and burn without someone who can hear it taking over. OK, so no one dies either way. It's still true.

It still holds that one can have the best MBCs and compressors and EQs in the business, and can have all the technique and support they can get their paws on and learn, but that stuff is all meaningless if they can't tell that the vocal is too sibilant by listening to it themselves. Not only will they not know that they need to use that gear and those techniques because they can't even hear the problem, but they could never fix it anyway because they couldn't hear when the problem disappears.

Expecting someone who can't hear what a mix needs to make a halfway decent recording and mix is like expecting a blind man to expose and Photoshop a halfway decent photograph. But there is an expectation in home recording that they don't head to have that ear because they have a computer that'll automatically do it all for them. Tell them that Photoshop will automatically make the blind man the next Annie Leibowitz, however, and they rightly think you're nuts (because you would be to think that )

G.

 

[miroslav]

In music production, one should not have to be told that a guitar is masking a vocal or that the vocals are too sibilant. They may not know the techniques for fixing such things, and that's OK, that's why forums like this exist. But if they can't hear the actual existence of those problems, then there is no way they will ever keep their plane from crashing or their basement from flooding, no matter how much anyone tries to help them.

I agree with you that people should know those things...but it's how they come to that knowledge is where we disagree.
You seem to imply that either you are one of those people that knows or doesn't...as though you are either born with that talent or not.
But I just don't see that to be that case with many people involved with music and audio.
Most learn it.
They learn to listen for "masking" effects. They learn what causes their low end to be muddy VS punchy...even though both are results of common bass frequencies.
I just don't see critical listening as something one either has or doesn't have.
Sure...some people will forever be tone-deaf, and no amount of training will fix it...and some will be "golden-ear" types, but, even they had to train their ears to listen critically, and that is IMO the heart of your "do what the music tells you" mantra.
It's about critical listening, and THAT needs to be developed through ear training, something that the majority of people have the aptitude for, they just need the training.

Speaking of muddy low end...I use to have a HELL of a time with low end frequencies!!!
Sure, I KNEW it sounded muddy...the music was clearly telling me!!!
But how to surgically listen to where/why the mud wascoming from...VS...having that glorious fat bottom I wanted...that took ear training and process/technique training.

 

[miroslav]

I'd submit that home recording is far from free. A couple years of time spent and hundreds, if not usually a couple thousand at least, of dollars later......

C'mon, don’t pull any punches...tell them the real truth…
….many, many years and thousands of dollars!!!

I know computers/digital has brought the cost down...but it's still not cheap if you want to pursue audio recording on a serious commercial or serious hobby level.

But I don't really see that as a problem. I know some people tell stories of how their sig-other freaks at the idea of yet one more guitar amp coming into the house...etc, but then those same people have no problem with dropping $6k on a week’s vacation just to have room service...
...or some other luxuries.
Recording and having a studio is not much different than most hobbies...golf, skiing, coin collecting, boating...etc.
And if you DO want to pursue it commercially...then treat it like any business venture/investment.
You're not going to open a studio with a laptop and 3 mics...though I know some people try!

I've sacrificed a LOT of things (and spent a lot of $$$) for my studio/music/audio interests...but I wouldn't trade it back for anything else.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I agree with you that people should know those things...but it's how they come to that knowledge is where we disagree.
You seem to imply that either you are one of those people that knows or doesn't...as though you are either born with that talent or not.
...
C'mon, don’t pull any punches...tell them the real truth…
….many, many years and thousands of dollars!!!

I know computers/digital has brought the cost down...but it's still not cheap if you want to pursue audio recording on a serious commercial or serious hobby level.

But I don't really see that as a problem.

Aww, Miro, baby, you're skimming posts and not reading them.

I said already that I am NOT saying that one has to be born with it, and explained that all already in detail a couple of posts ago. If you want any further response beyond this, it's back there.

And I also don't see a problem with spending the money. That wasn't the point. I was only responding to Bristol's comment that home recording was free. You and I obviously agree that it isn't.

"Thread's dead, baby...thread's dead." - Bruce Willis in Pulp Fiction

G.

 

[miroslav]

Aww, Miro, baby, you're skimming posts and not reading them.

I said already that I am NOT saying that one has to be born with it, and explained that all already in detail a couple of posts ago. If you want any further response beyond this, it's back there.

And I also don't see a problem with spending the money. That wasn't the point. I was only responding to Bristol's comment that home recording was free. You and I obviously agree that it isn't.

"Thread's dead, baby...thread's dead." - Bruce Willis in Pulp Fiction

G.

I was just adding on to the money part....

AFA the other...yeah, you *said* they don't have to be born with it...but you never quite explained how you think they should get that knowledge if not through training/instruction...???
You still feel that they either just have it or not...and that to me is the same as being born with it.

 

[gecko zzed]

AFA the other...yeah, you *said* they don't have to be born with it...but you never quite explained how you think they should get that knowledge if not through training/instruction...???
You still feel that they either just have it or not...and that to me is the same as being born with it.

Not so.

Glen has always been an advocate of developing critical listening skills, and this forum abounds with posts of his relating to developing that ability.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I was just adding on to the money part....

AFA the other...yeah, you *said* they don't have to be born with it...but you never quite explained how you think they should get that knowledge if not through training/instruction...???
You still feel that they either just have it or not...and that to me is the same as being born with it.

Not so.

Glen has always been an advocate of developing critical listening skills, and this forum abounds with posts of his relating to developing that ability.

Thread's dead, but zzed's not

Miro, OK so I didn't go into detail this time, but here's what I did say:

This stuff *can* be learned. But learn to listen first - *and* listen to a LOT of different stuff first. Learn how to listen and what to listen to when you do listen.

Tell me where in there ANYWHERE is even the closest thing to even a veiled implication that "either one is born with it or they aren't."

All I'm saying is that one needs to have the ear before they can use the gear. I never said it was a genetic trait, and have repeatedly said it can be learned.

If I had a buck for every post I made on this BBS describing the "practice with a graphic EQ" method (which I also wrote about and posted on my website a long time ago, BTW) as just one introductory exercise, amongst others, I could buy you a decent lunch with the money.

Christ, why did I even bother coming back to this sinkhole...?

G.

 

[noisewreck]

Christ, why did I even bother coming back to this sinkhole...?

G.

Cuz you love us

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Cuz you love us

Oh yeah, that's GOTTA be it!!

Either that or I just can't hear enough about Sgt. Pepper and the Black Album

G.

 

[noisewreck]

Oh yeah, that's GOTTA be it!!

Either that or I just can't hear enough about Sgt. Pepper and the Black Album

G.

Well, then the only other option left is masochism

 

[miroslav]

All I'm saying is that one needs to have the ear before they can use the gear. I never said it was a genetic trait, and have repeatedly said it can be learned.

OK, so they should "have the ears"...but again, how do they get that ears?

This goes back to you just repeating "do what the music tells you"...and all I'm saying is, THAT amount of "instruction" will rarely teach anyone how to use and develop their ears even there is a deep meaning to it (which I understand).

While you say you’re not implying someone has to be born with it...you also suggest that a lot of it is either part of our skill set or not.
When we debated this the first time...it DID center around learning/teaching...and if I recall, you argued that people shouldn't be spoon fed and told how-to specifics...rather they should just "do what the music tells them".
So you are kinda’ dancing around your own point a bit...but it's really not important to me, it's only important to the guys who don't understand what you mean when you tell them to "do what the music tells you".

Now don't get your Hawaiian shirt all twisted....we don’t have to beat on this any further…I just wanted to welcome you back properly!